Episode 169: The Enneagram's Biggest Challenges Revealed with Enneagram Expert, Sandhya Sudhakar
Sitting beside our excitement for something as interesting as the Enneagram test is also our doubt – how accurate can it be? How can we use the results in meaningful ways?
In part two of this three-episode series, Erin and Enneagram expert Sandhya Sudhakar discuss the Enneagram’s biggest challenges and how to work with them, not against them, for yourself and your team.
Listen to learn how to take you and your team’s Enneagram results and put internalization, action, and intention around them.
ICYMI – Your Post-Episode Homework: Listen to part three of this series, Episode 170. It’s all about how the Enneagram can help us build a culture of belonging within our teams and organizations.
Connect with Sandhya Sudhakar:
Sandhya’s LinkedIn
Sandhya’s company, Self at Work
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Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
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Episode 169 Transcription
Erin (00:01):
Improve it! Peeps, we are back with part two of this three part series with my friend Sandhya Sudhakar and I am so excited for this amazing episode all about the biggest challenges with the Enneagram. So if you have it, go back, listen to part one of this series in episode 168, where we are talking about how this tool can help you develop yourself as a leader. And now we're gonna talk about the challenges that comes into play when leading our teams. So take a moment, go back, listen to episode 169 or 168, and let's get back to improve it with my friend Sandhya. It's such a cool tool, right? And I love that it even starts with childhood. Like it talks a lot about our formative years in a lot of the descriptions which were ranked true. I was like, rga, ding, ding, that ding, <laugh>. But what would you say, if you could list three challenges, like what would three of the biggest challenges be with this assessment?
Sandhya (01:24):
So, a couple of things. I think the number one, like biggest challenge to using this is we are, we are used to quick fixes and easy answers in our workplace culture, in our society, right? With enneagram, you cannot have your team take an online test and just like check the box and say, we know everybody's types because the framework is kind of goes to that deeper level of like unconscious motivation. You can't test for that. No, no. Online test can test for that. Yeah. So it has to be a process where like you're investing some time and some reflection and some self-observation into finding your type. So I would say getting to the type is harder than a lot of these other things out there. Like Hogan, our disk or strengths finders, right? Where you can just have everybody take a test and like get the results and go action those results.
Sandhya (02:25):
With enneagram, you've gotta have your team or yourself as an individual, right? Take your top couple of scores, I'd say like your top three or four scores and really read into those and understand those and like reflect and, and don't choose right in the moment, right? Just like give yourself a couple of days to observe yourself. And with awareness, right? When we have awareness of certain things, we see them pop up all the time, right? If we buy a green car, we see a million green cars all of a sudden. But when we don't, we're not thinking about that proactively. We don't see any green cars. So read through, like internalize it, observe yourself and see where does this motivation come up? Not, oh yes, I'm really competitive, so I'm definitely a type three. So that's like the, the single biggest thing that I would say is like, really important to make sure that people are accurately and like ethically getting to their type and they're self-selecting into it.
Sandhya (03:23):
And then you can go and have the conversations and dig deeper and things like that. So I think that's the, the, you know, maybe there's a couple of challenges encompassed in that it's not a quick fix <laugh> mm-hmm. <Affirmative> mm-hmm <affirmative>. You can't just take a test to get the results and go and run with it. And it requires some intention around the conversations which I think a lot of people do naturally and can hold that space really well and others that's just not the real house and that's totally okay. And so that's where like, you know, bring in a facilitator or put some intention behind how you wanna talk about this tool with your team.
Erin (04:02):
I love it. Lemme ask you this question. This just popped in my head as you were talking. Have you ever had somebody actually take the assessment, get the assessment and say, this is absolutely incorrect? Is that ever happened?
Sandhya (04:18):
Certainly at first <laugh> there, I mean, there are definitely people who take it and they're like, no, I don't. I mean, yeah, I, I I do some of that stuff, but I'm not really image conscious or I don't ignore my feelings like that or, you know, whatever it is. And, and eventually probably they come around, but like for me, whenever I'm working with somebody, especially one-on-one I don't always use the test. I do my own typing sessions where it's like, I am asking you lots of questions about your life for 45 minutes, and then I'm gonna give you my assessment of like, here's the top couple of themes that came up. And so like, you respond, react to that. So there can be like a little bit of like, I mean we all, we all do it and, and our own types are the ones that are hardest to like read and hear because it's our, it's our own stuff, right? So I read someone else's, you know, negative or challenging stuff and I'm like, ah, that's not a big deal, whatever. But when I read my own, I'm like, Ooh, my God, really? I am really like that <laugh>. So there's definitely a maybe an acceptance process that goes along with it and yeah, so
Erin (05:30):
<Laugh>, it's so true. I mean, truly like when I was reading my own assessment yesterday, I was thinking to myself, this is hilarious. Cuz says, you know, biggest fear failure, I teach about failure. I mean, that's literally those who can't teach. Like that is why I lean into the concept so much because I'm freaking terrified of it and I'm learn my life lesson is here to get over it and just encompass it and let it be a part of the journey. And it's so, so interesting. You have to let go of ego in order to take in this information and really be self-aware and give yourself space to reflect and then implement, right? And so these challenges that you mentioned I think are so true. And I think when, when it comes to leading our teams, it's so important. And like you mentioned before, it's also just so important to, it's not a one one time personality assessment.
Erin (06:29):
You get the results and then you're like, oh, I understand Susan. Right? It's an evolution. It is understanding this and growing with it and understanding our own growth and professional development along with it. So let me ask you this, just when it comes to understanding, now we know our assessment. So let's say a listener's listening and they know they're Enneagram type. Now they've taken a test before they're coming to the show, knowing their type. Obviously some people just take the test and then just run with it, right? They don't go deeper. What is a challenge with that, with not going deeper into the content? What can, what can happen if you don't fully understand it?
Sandhya (07:11):
Yeah, I think you know, if if if someone takes a test and they, you know, they're like, oh yes, it's definitely my type. And you go and find all the Instagram accounts that are like, yeah, type nine s really love like a nap in a cozy book situation and a T, right? Like, that's fine, it's fun, right? D go for it. Like have, have a good time with it. Where I think this moves into challenging territory is when somebody says, oh, I'm a type eight. So I'm just a really direct communicator. So that's just how I am, right? And we use it to make an excuse about the things that might have a negative impact on the people that we care about is when it gets into maybe problematic territory. So really using this as a, an awareness tool, right? And a tool for growth versus a tool to say, well, just because I, I'm putting myself in this box, this is just the way I am.
Erin (08:07):
Yeah, that makes total sense. Ooh, I really want my husband to take this test. He's never taken it. I was like, come on, we're doing it. So this will be interesting cause I kind of think he is an eight. Okay, so let me ask you this. Have you, let me, this is just a curious question. What led you to the Enneagram in the first place? I know you were on this sabbatical, I know you're in Bali, you were doing the workshop, but before that, how did you land with this, this sort of craving of this knowledge?
Sandhya (08:41):
Yeah, I, I, in that moment where I was saying I had a relationship that was really challenging and I had this like, work situation that was really challenging. We had just gone through an acquisition. I was feeling really like I don't know, floundering <laugh> and experiencing a lot of emotions inside of my body that for a long time, and this is a pattern of the type three is oh, I, I'm just gonna like, put my emotions like in the, in a box in the back of the closet and like do things, get stuff done. And so for a lot of time I just didn't have like a relationship with my emotions until they were like banging on the door so loud that I couldn't ignore them. And so I just got really curious because I was like, what is happening to me <laugh>?
Sandhya (09:30):
So like, what is going on in my world? And let me like start reading and exploring and like, I got, I got into the book attached, which was like super interesting and like enlightening for me. I had had a boss that had mentioned how much she loved the Ingram and I went and started reading about it and I found my type and it like clarified so much stuff for me. And so using something in my own life, I know, cuz I've had this reflected back to me by friends and, and people in my world when I, in, like, when I internalize and use something and experiment with something and I, I find that it works. I like wanna tell the entire world about it. And so I like share it, like shout it from the rooftops. And so when I went to Bali, I was like, well there's this thing I'm really into and I really like it and it's worked really well for me to just make sense of my world and what's going on. Is anyone else interested? And people were like, yeah, heck yeah, please do that. <Laugh>,
Erin (10:31):
Yes, okay, I'm laughing with you because I am the exact same way as a three and I'm like, I just watched the, the show Daisy Jones and the six, and I think the entire world should watch it. And I've been telling everybody, I'm like, literally, you have to do this. You have to do this. That is a very big characteristic of our, of our trait. And on a personal level, I can also very much relate to being a three and disassociating from my emotions. I, we did a series on the show called the Self-Healing Series, where I literally hid from my emotions for 39 years. I would disassociate by overworking perfectionism, all the things that are true to us. I'm saying us cuz we are the same. And I manifested chronic pain into my body and my body was screaming at me, my back specifically to understand this pain. And it was diagnoseable by doctors, like multiple doctors. Finally, after healing and understanding my emotions and processing the things that I had put in the deepest, darkest caves of my mind, the pain went away. And when it resurfaces, I understand why, which is crazy. But this assessment was just a validation to me of the truth that I uncovered before. Like, it's just insane how this assessment was created. Who, this is a question. Okay, let's start here. Who created the Enneagram? Like how did we even get our
Sandhya (12:14):
Igram
Erin (12:15):
This come from first place?
Sandhya (12:17):
Yeah, it, so it's it's rooted in a lot of like ancient wisdom, you know, ancient cultural wisdom from different places, but it got kind of like modernized in South America, like the 1970s. There's like a psychotherapist and someone else that kind of like came together and like created what we maybe know as like the modern version of the agram. So, you know, it's, it's rooted in <laugh>, ancient wisdom, different religions. There's, you know, the way we see it today, there's a lot of like social psychology ties in things like the self-determination theory. What do adults need in order to like find, like have fulfilling lives and like move towards self-actualization? Like that stuff's all in here. And so yeah, it's maybe a little fuzzy in its origins, but <laugh> it's been evolved over time.
Erin (13:09):
<Laugh>, I mean I will take the fuzziness cuz it is spot on, whoever, I mean whoever sat down with that quiz and said, here's what you're gonna spit out. I mean somebody was working through that. Cuz it is spot on. I mean, it's, it's insane. And if I wanted to ask you this, I took the exam, the exam, I took <laugh>, this was a test. I took the assessment a studied, it was a lifelong study. I took it on truity.com. But where would you in that I paid $19 to get my results. I felt like I had to do it. Is there a free resource for somebody listening to find out their Enneagram that you know of?
Sandhya (13:51):
Yeah, so I would say there's a $12 resource and the free resource is like, go on agram institute.com or narrative agram.org. Those are kind of the two schools of agram that are like most robust and most well known. They both have tons of information on all of the types. So you can go and you can dive super deep. I would say if you want to do this, the freeway, like you can't, there's a, a free version of truity where you can take it and just not pay for the report, but it'll give you this pie chart of your results. Take whatever test I'd say Truity or the one that's on agram institute.com, take any test that you want. If you wanna go the test route and just take your top three scores and then read all about them and observe yourself. That is the pa that is the way, if you're gonna kind of self-identify, you wanna find your type. That's my recommendation. There's no one test that I would say take the test and take the top result. Right? It's always gonna be take your top three results and dig in.
Erin (14:58):
Yeah. Oh, I love it. Okay. Thank you for that. And we'll put all of that in the show notes too. So people, if you haven't taken the Enneagram can do this.
Erin (15:16):
Friends, if this episode has served you like it is SEN may with some fantastic tools, with some deeper understanding of my own core motivations as a type three Enneagram, I wanna ask you to please consider leaving an iTunes review for this show. It helps us get amazing guests, like my friend here on the show and bring more amazing people to the Improve IT Peeps community. So here is your homework from today's episode. We really listen to some of the challenges when it comes to using this tool as a professional development source for our teams. And I want you to really understand this. We have to take this information and then really put intention around not only understanding it for ourselves, but understanding it on a deeper level for our teams. And what that ultimately leads us to when we can do both of those things efficiently is a culture of belonging. So your homework for today is to listen to part three of this series, episode one 70, all about how the Enneagram can help us build this culture of belonging. We're taking this chunk by chunk, piece by piece so you can really absorb and apply this information. So I'll see you back here for episode one 70 of the Improvement Podcast, all about building a culture of belonging with my friend Sandhya.
Erin (17:01):
Hey friend, did you enjoy today's show? If so, head on over to iTunes to rate and subscribe. So you never miss an episode. Now, did I mention that when you leave a five star review of the Improve It podcast, an actual team of humans does a happy dance? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That's right. So leave a review for us on iTunes, screenshot it, and send me an email at info learn to improve it.com. I'll send you a personalized video back as a thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Improve It Peeps. I'll see you next Wednesday.