Episode 204: How to Build Trust with Yourself and with Others with Justin Patton
“I will never be one of those speakers or coaches who tells people that they need to change. I actually believe the opposite. I don’t think people need to change–I think they walked out of the truth of who they really are.” -Justin Patton
We live in an age of toxic self-improvement culture. Adding a daily 30-minute meditation, new skincare gadget, or bedtime supplement into our routine has become second nature. In today’s episode, Erin and guest Justin Patton discuss what it means to come back home to yourself despite everything we’re told we need to improve.
As the Founder & CEO of The Trust Architect Group, Justin helps remarkable people discover what’s holding them back, how to build more trust in themselves and with others, and how to use their presence to impact people, results, and culture. Spoiler alert: today you are one of those remarkable people.
ICYMI – Your Post-Episode Homework: Consider the four steps to repairing trust. You take ownership, you renegotiate the relationship, you ask for or extend forgiveness, and then you demonstrate a change in your behavior. Think about a relationship in your life that needs repairing and ask yourself how you can apply Justin's methodology to that relationship.
More about Justin Patton: 1. He’s a former high school teacher with a master’s degree in education. He knows how to design leadership programs that stick. 2. He believes if you ever want to be a great leader of others, you must first be a great leader of yourself. He’s written three award-winning books that focus on helping leaders do that work. 3. He’s been lucky enough to work with some awesome brands like Taco Bell, GE Appliances, NCAA, US Chamber of Commerce, Anthem, Humana, Giant, The Coffee Bean and Tea Leaf, and many more! 4. He’s led the largest leadership development program in Taco Bell’s franchise history and worked with over 10,000 Restaurant General Managers.
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Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
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Episode 204 Transcription
Erin (00:01):
Okay, y'all, listen, I know I come on this show and I'm gushing about our guests. I am literally sitting here after this interview with tears in my eyes from laughter, tears, from just real authentic conversation and just a huge smile on my face. You are going to love Justin Patton. I cannot wait for you to hear this episode. Let me tell you a little bit about Justin, then we will get into it. But if you want your leaders to think differently about trust and how they communicate, then Justin is your person. As the founder of the Trust Architect Group, he works with leaders on how to build trust in themselves with others and across the organization. He studied body language from a former FBI agent published for books and has expertise in communication, leadership presence, and how to build a culture of trust that keeps bringing people back for more.
Erin (00:55):
He has a dynamic high energy style, which I think you're used to, and often receives the highest ratings at conferences. He is a joy, he is a light warrior, as you'll hear him say, and I can't wait for you to hear this conversation. So let's get to improving it with Justin Patton. Hi, new friend. I'm Erin Diehl, business improv edutainer, failfluener, and keynote speaker who is ready to help you improve your it, it being the thing that makes you, you. So think of me as your keeping it real. Professional development bestie who is here to help you develop yourself into the best version of you possible so you can develop your team and lead with intentionality, transparency, and authenticity. Oh, and did I mention we're improving your IT through play? That's right. I am an improvisational comedy expert who uses experiential learning to help you have your aha haha moments. Those are the moments when the light bulb goes off and you're laughing at the same time. So grab your chicken hat, your notebook, and your inner child because I'm gonna take you on a journey that is both fun and transformative. Welcome to the Improve It Podcast.
Erin (02:23):
Justin, welcome to the Improve It Pod. I am thrilled to have you here. Your energy is just everything. So welcome to the show.
Justin (02:35):
Thank you. Awesome to be here with you and everyone listening. Just excited to be here with you.
Erin (02:41):
Okay. So I love to set an intention before we start. So let's set an intention that, what is one word that you wanna give yourself, but also the audience today? What's one thing, if you could set a one word intention for this episode, what would it be?
Justin (03:00):
One word. I would say real because I get stuck and trying to be the part we want, you know, we think people want us to be, or I could even on the other side get so caught up in saying, am I adding the right value? It's like, let's just be real, have some real conversations and trust that by being real, we're gonna, it is gonna resonate with exactly who it needs to resonate with.
Erin (03:23):
That's it, man. Okay, I'm here for that. <Laugh> the real deal. We're here for it. Because I gotta tell you, I love, I love having a podcast because I get to talk to people like you and you're a person who just gets that, right? You just get it. You get that authenticity, you get showing up as your real self. And I have to tell you, I love getting mail and you sent me all four copies of your book, all signed. Okay. And I, I just, I'm in love and I, I think you're the BS news when it comes to speakers and helping people own their power, own their leadership style. So I just want, I need some background here. What, tell the audience what brought this to, or what brought you to this work?
Justin (04:10):
Yeah. Gosh, such a big question. Well, I thought I was going in the F B I, I'm sure the F B I now was like, oh, we've, thank God we missed over that one. Y'all <laugh>, <laugh>. But and real quick, you know, when I was 18, my dad died very unexpectedly. He went in for surgery, had hemorrhoid surgery, supposed to be very minor. They left gauze inside of him. We did not know that. So for a month and a half that we thought he was recovering was bacteria growing in his body and he ended up getting sepsis and died in my mom's arms. Very traumatic. And I think as an 18 year old kid who didn't know how to handle loss like that, I coped The only way I knew. And for me that was to just emotionally disconnect. So Aaron, I tell people I was literally for 12 years after that, dead from my neck down. So everything I teach now is about showing up and the art of presence and making your presence matter. But it's because I didn't show up. I didn't get it right. I didn't have empathy for people because I didn't even have empathy for myself. I threw myself into my career and used my job to validate myself like so many people have. But sometimes you can get so caught up in getting results that you run over people or
Erin (05:20):
Yes,
Justin (05:21):
You don't think about how your actions are impacting others. And, and so I just, you know, that's kind of where it started. And then about 30 I was like, you know what? I, I know I can play bigger, but I am getting in my own way and I'm gonna have to do some things differently. So I got some help, I got some, got some feedback from people that was not easy to hear, did my work. And then I went all in and saying, you know what? I'm gonna change my life and hopefully help change other people. So obviously training, certifications, experience, and kind of ultimately, which allowed me to have my own business for the last 10 years. And, and it led me to this point. But it's not, I always tell people I'm not here 'cause I got it all together or have all the answers. I've learned it the hard way. And I hope just to be able to use a little bit of that journey now to help other people.
Erin (06:07):
I love that. I love it. You were, you were the student and the teacher and now you're teaching those lessons that you've learned. I love that. Justin and I'm, what a story. And I also really felt what you said, I was numb, I was numb from the neck down. Is that what you said? Yeah, I
Justin (06:26):
Said I was dead from the neck down,
Erin (06:28):
Dead from the neck down. Yeah. And that so many people sort of sleepwalk their way through life. And I think really, I'm a spiritual human, so I feel like really awakening to who you really are and really remembering who you really are is what it sounds like you did. Like you always knew. It just took you time to really remember and yeah. That's awesome. Ah, well I'm glad you found your way. So let me ask you this one. What, oh, go ahead. Go ahead. Well, I
Justin (07:00):
Just have see things like, I'm like, listen, I gotta share two things based on what you just said. Yes. But I love is, there's a line from Ralph Ellison in The Invisible Man and he says, there's nothing more dangerous in this world than a sleep, than Sleepwalkers. And I think about, I was sleepwalking and I think about how many people in business today, how many leaders are in management positions that are sleepwalking who are completely unaware of how their actions are impacting other people. And I think that's the, that's whether it's podcasts like yours, Aaron, or books or trainings, it's like, I think we have this opportunity to wake up more to like who we really are, which is what you said. And it's interesting 'cause I'm, I will never be one of those speakers coaches that tells people they need to change. I actually believe the opposite. I actually don't think people need to change. I think they've walked out of the truth of who they really are. Yes. And our job is to always come back home, but we gotta have a vision and we gotta know what that version is. And when we don't, we're sleepwalking. I love it. And so that's the power of stuff that you're doing as well, that I think is the power for all of us is to, is to really come home to ourselves.
Erin (08:11):
I love that. I, so I just, I, like I said, I'm spiritual. Okay. She's a, she's a woowoo, and Wayne Dyer is somebody I really like. Okay. And I just heard him say this recently. It was just like a five minute meditation. I was going to sleep and I googled five minute meditation, Wayne Dyer, and he said, you can either be a home to your highest self or a host to your ego.
Justin (08:38):
Yeah, totally agree.
Erin (08:40):
And that to me is like exactly what you just said, wrapped up. And, and both of those are beautiful. And I feel like you have really found your path. You've helped so many people. What would you say is, is the biggest lesson you've learned?
Justin (08:57):
Yeah, for me it's that your presence is your greatest legacy. Hmm. I think we keep thinking we have to achieve more, do more, be more. When the reality is any, the only thing people are gonna remember is your presence, how you made people feel, which we've always heard. I remember I was at a speaking event recently, and this woman comes up to me and she goes, really? Her fear was that she would die before she felt like she accomplished everything she needed to do. And I said to her, who fooled you into believing that you already have to do more to be successful? Mm-Hmm. And to add value. Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, that's, we, we bought into that lie and I said, we did your greatest legacy is your presence right now. And yes, I there was what there's in there, there's a book. I haven't read it, I just bought it about the five regrets of people that you know of that, of the dying. Mm-Hmm. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And one of 'em is we didn't show up and spend time with the people that really mattered. And I was like, that's it. No one cares about the awards I got. How many certifications I got? No one. Caress <laugh>,
Erin (10:01):
Justin, I swear to you, this is like, you know, when the universe brings you people in your life at the right time to talk to you at the right time. This is exactly like that lesson that you just described. Some shows are for my audience, some are for me, this was for me. No, I'm just kidding. This is for everybody because I think I just, I will stop the sob story, but I, I recently had a concussion this summer I had post-concussion syndrome. How it happened was a really silly experience, but I learned so much in that experience and I learned that in order to do more, I have to do less. And that I was conditioned from a really young age with awards for achieving things, with trophies, for people pleasing for trying to be the best. And that, that condition is not necessarily who I am now.
Erin (10:56):
I don't need to look externally. I need to look internally as to am I validating myself? Am I giving myself enough time? And in doing so, I am so much more present to the people in my life. I have a four year old, sometimes I get frustrated with, you know, coming from work and then going into motherhood. It's hard. It's a hard dynamic. We just went on a vacation. I set an intention to create core memories for him with a big group of family. It was the be the most present I have ever felt with him on a trip in my entire four years of him being on this earth like that. And I hope he, if he doesn't feel it, at least I feel it because I was, I thought to myself, I'm actually slowing down to give this person time who deeply caress for it and wants it right now. He might not in 10 years. And it felt so good. And it's just we as leaders, as human beings just continue to go from thing to thing to thing without recognizing that gift that we could give ourselves. That's so easy.
Justin (12:07):
I love that you had that moment. I remember I was years ago I was speaking, I did a lot of work with Taco Bell and I was at an event and this, this woman raises her hand and she had just become a grandmother. Right. And she goes, I realize now that I worked so hard in my life to give my kids what I never had and all they wanted all along was me and I never gave them me.
Erin (12:32):
Yeah.
Justin (12:32):
And I'm like, we're doing all this to try to, from a place of like, you know, hope and love and compassion, but then what we're doing is we're not present. And that's the only thing that they wanted from us all along. And it was just, it was a, it was a, it was a big moment for me to kind of digest that, hear that. And just, yeah, how many of us are well intentioned but then still aren't showing up for the people that we actually love the most.
Erin (12:58):
I love that. And I know, so I wanted to focus mostly today on showing up for other people, which I love in your book Road to Yes. You look so cute on that cover, by the way, <laugh>. And it's how to build trust in yourself and with others. And I love the message of this, but you have to do the inner work first, which is in a book that, it's in a former book. I read this book, I did not get to the other book yet. So tell us about how you do the inner work. Just if you could give us a high level overview, what are a few things, a few key takeaways that you could do to do the inner work before you are able to invest and get and allow others to trust you?
Justin (13:37):
Yeah. When I wrote Bold New You, that was my first book. And that was a really, a lot of my journey after my dad died to say like, how did I come back home to myself? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And the whole premise is that if you're ever gonna be a great leader of other people, you have to be a great leader of yourself. I don't care if that's in your family with your friends at work and the whole idea, there's, you know, there's like six chapters, but part of it is take care of yourself first. Right? We've all heard that, but what does that actually look like? What does that mean? Part of that is also, you know, taking responsibility for the energy that you show up with energy can feel very woo-hoo. But I always define energy as your presence and your mindset. So when you walk into a room, what's the presence you have, the mindset you have and the reason your energy is important.
Justin (14:19):
You lead love and communicate on the level of your energy. And it's not like you're just in one space all the time. You're going in and out and are you even aware about where you are? And so when I, when I think when you take responsibility for your energy, you take care of yourself first. When you, you kind of live in purpose and you do all this stuff, I think everyone else benefits as a result. So I don't think it's selfish. I actually think it's necessary. And what I hope that book does is just get people very specific actions and tools on how they can do that inner work for themselves.
Erin (14:51):
I love it. Bold new you. And here's what, here's a little, a little tweetable that I'm super here for. Your energy equals your presence and mindset. You lead, love, communicate on the level of your energy. That is so true. It is so true. It affects everybody. So if you, if you as a person listening here today, want to give more to your family, you want to give more to your team, you wanna show up differently, realize that the shifts that you make internally what Justin is saying here is going to impact everyone. But most importantly you. Because who doesn't wanna feel good? Like that's what you're saying is feel good, right? Show up as the highest version.
Justin (15:33):
Well, I, you know, when I always think about the book that literally changed my life was a Return to Love by Marian Williamson.
Speaker 3 (15:40):
Okay. Yes, yes, yes.
Justin (15:45):
<Laugh>, thank you. And literally, like when I talk about the turning point, that was the turning point for me. And I, I wrote down a line 'cause I was like, I don't know when this is gonna come up, but I wanna share it. You know? And when I talk about energy, everything I've ever studied says there's only two core emotions in the world. Everything is rooted in love or fear. That is it. Every other emotion is an outgrowth of one of those. So out of fear, judgment, bitterness, anger, hatred, bullying, criticism, all of that. And outta love is transparency, forgiveness, grace, hope, all of that. And I'm not saying life gets easier, but I definitely think that we make very different decisions when we understand what's driving the behavior. So here's the quote from Maryanne Williamson's book. She says, of course in miracles tells us there is no such thing as a faithless person.
Justin (16:39):
We either have faith in fear or we have faith in love. That is it. That's it. And the moment, my turning point for me, even in how I led teams, how I led myself is when I started saying, what choice would I make if I was coming from a place of love? You can leave a marriage out of love, but leaving it out of fear is a very different experience. You can stay in a job from a place of love, but staying in it from a place of fear is miserable. Totally. And so for me, part of this inner work is just getting really clear about what's driving your decisions, what's driving how you're showing up and, and is it what I want for myself and for people to experience out me.
Erin (17:20):
I freaking love it. Yes. That book
Justin (17:23):
<Laugh>
Erin (17:24):
That that book, like I, I'm sure, I mean obviously it's a bestseller, but I feel like so many people could sit here and say, that book was the turning point. That book was a turning point for me too. I felt like that was the first homecoming I ever had to myself was after that book. I love that. And I love what you said, it's either love or fear. There are no in-betweens. It's either love or fear. And it's so true. If you have not read that book, please get that book along with Justin's books, <laugh>, I and I and I wanna talk to
Justin (17:52):
Go to Maryanne's first. I you could go
Erin (17:54):
To Maryanne, then go to Justin. Okay. But here's the deal. I love that what you ultimately, you're saying is we have to have self-love in order to give to others, which I totally resonate with. And we are talking this month on the show about investing in ourselves so that we can invest in others. How do you invest in yourself daily?
Justin (18:16):
Yeah, I, a few, a few ways. You asking me personally, right?
Erin (18:20):
Yeah.
Justin (18:21):
Yeah. I think I'm really clear about when I'm not showing up my best and I have these micro things that I do to say, okay, I need to stop and what do I need to do for me to get me back in a better place? So I remember during the pandemic I was at, you know, we were all working from home where I was right. And I would go check the mailbox, y'all mailbox four times a day. <Laugh>, I know there's no mail. I'm sure my neighbors were like, well what is that guy doing Right. <Laugh> just getting out right is just a way for me to disconnect and I need to be, yeah. This is another thing. So I just, one thing you're people will never know about me. So I'm really connected in nature. So I just bought, I, I haven't moved there yet, but we're closing on a home.
Justin (19:06):
I just bought a house on seven acres of land, a pond, all of this. But I need to be in nature. That's my element. Now granted, Aaron, I'm not gonna lie to you. I bought the snake, the snake bite boots the machete. I'm like, I, what's gonna happen? Y'all better be sending me some hopes and prayers on this, on this land over here. But I just know for me, when I step outside and I'm in nature, for me, for me that works. But that's not working for someone else. Someone else needs to say, I need to go take a 10 minute shower with candles or whatever. I think you gotta know what works for you. Whether it's watching a YouTube video that's funny or listening to music, you know, in the morning sometimes I, I actually been reading all this week, I take 10 minutes and I read a chapter of Marian Williams's book. I listen to some music. It's my way of kind of getting grounded. And so that works for me. And so for everyone listening, what is your, I call them kind of these emotional recharge habits. What's the habit for you that you say, you know what, when I start feeling myself slipping outta my energy level that I wanna be, what's the habit that I need to create or I already do that helps me get back to that better place?
Erin (20:14):
I love it. I love it. I wanna see a picture of you in the snake boots. Okay. We need the snake boots. We need the machete. <Laugh>. We need a picture of you like outta the seven acres. I'm super here for that. And I think that's right. Like everybody needs their, everyone has their own thing. And I lived in Chicago for 15 years and I didn't crave nature until like the last three years when I said, get me out of here. I need trees, I need grass, I need to be barefoot in that grass. And I moved. And so things have changed and I now live in Charleston, South Carolina and things are much sunnier and brighter and I just, I love hearing what drives people because everybody has a way to invest in themselves and you know what it is 'cause it brings you joy. Right.
Justin (20:56):
I just also think for me, I also, as you're talking, it's like I also think everyone needs an outlet for some, someone in their life to talk to. I've coached too many people who swallow their emotions and keep it to themselves. And the danger of that is it eats you from the inside out and they feel like they're on an island by themselves. And that is a really lonely place to be. And so part of doing the inner work is knowing that you don't have to do it alone.
Erin (21:27):
Yeah. And
Justin (21:28):
Do you have someone, I don't care who someone is, it could be a coworker, it could be your best friend, it could be a parent, it could be, it could be anyone. But do you have someone that you're like, I'm struggling, or you know what, this per this person just sent me an email, girl, let me tell you what they just said. You know, like where you can just vent, right? Yes. Yes.
Erin (21:48):
Think
Justin (21:48):
We all need that outlet in our lives.
Erin (21:53):
Yes. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. And it doesn't, like you said, it doesn't have to be a paid coach or a therapist. It can be a human being. We know. And I love that you said that because I, I love also in the very beginning when you said I was dead from the neck down, swallowing our emotions, I am a testament to it causes physical pain. I had physical pain for a long time because of repressed emotions. And it took me healing the emotions to heal the physical. It's, it's just so crazy that mind body connection, which I know you get, I feel like you get and, and so many people don't. And it just takes that, that investing in yourself, yourself taking time, finding the right person like you talked about. And I also wanna parlay that into, once you work through those things you've done that internal work, how you can be a resource for others. You are the founder of the architect trust architect group. And I love in the book you wrote to Yes. That you talk about three factors in building trust. Can you tell us what they are?
Justin (23:09):
I better be able to, right. <Laugh> I
Speaker 3 (23:11):
Know podcast
Justin (23:14):
Is about to take a turn. Y'all <laugh>.
Justin (23:18):
Yeah. So three factors of building trust. They are transparency. It is tact and it's togetherness. And I want to explain those just really quick because I coach so many leaders who will say this. They value transparency. 'cause They'll say, I'm just a truth teller. I just tell people how it is. People know where I stand and I'm gonna tell y'all, anytime someone tells you they're a truth teller, they are a jerk. That is what they're telling you. Okay. 'cause What they're gonna say is, I don't care how it lands, but you're gonna know where I stand. Yes. And I look at them and, and this is where the tack piece comes in because trust values both, you don't get to prioritize which one goes above the other. So yes, I want you to be transparent, candid, and honest with what you think, feel, believe.
Justin (24:08):
But I also want you to take 100% responsibility for how you deliver that message. And I always say, you're not responsible for how people take it because they're walking in with their lifetime of baggage that they're filtering everything you're saying through. But you are 100% responsible for how you deliver that message. And does the way that I deliver it honor who I am at my best? That would be number one. And does it keep people whole? I think you can be honest about what you think, feel, and believe while still making sure you, you take care of people in the process. I don't think it has to be one or the other. And then, and the, and the reason why that's important, tact is all about safety. And you cannot have trust without safety. I want everyone to hear that. I don't care if you're a parent, a leader in an organization working on a team with somebody.
Justin (25:00):
You cannot have trust without safety. And so it trust requires that. And then this idea of togetherness is this idea that I'm not in it alone. You know, when you were just talking about people doing their inner work, I think yes, I'm gonna do the work and that's on me, but I also have to let people have my back as I do the work. Hmm. And it doesn't have to be this individual process where I'm just gonna send everyone else away. I'm gonna go on my retreat, do all my work, and then just come back. No, it's not, it's not that type of process. Right. Yeah. I know a lot of people that are married that feel alone. Yeah. I know a lot of people that go into companies every day and they have to work with the boss where they feel like that boss does not have their back. And it's because there's this lack of togetherness in how we're showing up in the relationship. So trust is trust that's really healthy. And I think that is long-term successful long-term is when the, when you have a relationship where transparency talked and togetherness are all present.
Erin (26:00):
Hmm. I love that. And I love you said you cannot have trust without safety. Like that to me spoke volumes because you really can't, you when, when people leave managers, 'cause they don't leave jobs. When people leave leaders, they don't necessarily feel safe. And I can think of leaders I've left where I did not feel safe.
Justin (26:24):
And I think those leaders are always the one that's, they're blindsided when someone leaves, they're like, they don't get much notice. There was never conversations. In full transparency. I have a friend right now who is someone in my, in my world, right? Who just lets someone go who maybe. And I, I think that's okay. You can definitely let people go. But I never think people should be blindsided by that process. Right. And if all of a sudden, unless it's unethical or whatever, but if someone's blindsided, I think you failed them. I agree. And so there was a lack of transparency, there was a lack of togetherness, all of that. And I went to this individual and I'm like, wow, I've gotta be honest with you. I I expected more. Mm-Hmm. Especially 'cause of who this person is. And I was like, this person was really loyal to you for years and now you didn't turn around and give that same loyalty and respect back to that individual.
Justin (27:18):
And so, you know, for me it's, it's just, it's not that we're always gonna get it right in relationships. We all, we are human. We're gonna screw it up. I teach it for a living. And it's not that I get it right all the time, but I get it right way more often than I ever did. And it's just because I will, if you're, if you're in a relationship right now where trust is not where you want it to be, it is because one of those three factors is not where it needs to be. It could be one factor, it could be all three. But if trust is not where it needs to be, it's either trans people aren't telling the truth about what's going on, someone's holding back. Either someone's intensity doesn't make it safe, which then causes people to hold back. Or you feel like you're in this relationship and you're in it by yourself and no one's investing all that. It's all of that together is why the relationship is suffering.
Erin (28:07):
I love it. And I I also know that you have four steps to repairing trust when that trust is broken. And I thought those were awesome. So can you share those with us too?
Justin (28:19):
Yeah. So when trust is broken, I think you have to do a few things. Number one is you have to kind of take responsibility for kind of your, your part in this breakdown. So we gotta, we gotta have a conversation. I think that you also, there's a level of forgiveness that you have to be able to share. And I always say this, if you can't, if you can't forgive people in that process, then then you're never gonna be able, you should not be in the relationship if you are not able to forgive them. And the reason is, is you're always gonna hold them hostage to the person they were. And you're never gonna give them the ability to try to be, be someone else or to show up in the relationship differently. So taking ownership was the first one. Asking or extending forgiveness, renegotiating the relationship because you are never going back to the same relationship ever again.
Justin (29:16):
Yeah. That one's gone. So we needed to decide how are we gonna show up with each other. And then lastly, I'd always heard this line somewhere, it's demonstrated change in behavior. I'd always heard that someone said, I don't need you to keep apologizing. I need you to, to change your behavior. Right? Mm-hmm. <Affirmative> mm-hmm. <Affirmative>. And the best apology is a change in behavior. Yeah. And so this is what's interesting about those four though. So I'm gonna summarize those four. So everyone hears it. Take ownership, renegotiate the relationship, ask for and extend forgiveness and demonstrate a change in behavior. But this is what's interesting. When I wrote the book, Erin, I thought I was gonna be able to come to like podcasts like this and be like, oh girl, here you go, here are the four steps, linear, one, two, three, four, call it a day. But what I found out is those steps are not linear. And based on what happens, the order of those might actually change. What if you went behind someone's back at work and you shared something you shouldn't have shared? Maybe the first thing you need to do is forgive yourself before you're ever willing to take ownership with them. Totally.
Erin (30:20):
Like, totally.
Justin (30:21):
It, it's the, the steps are the steps, but the order of where they might fall might change based on what transpired in the relationship.
Erin (30:31):
I love it. And I, so as we all know, healing is not linear. Right. Just healing internally, it's not linear. And so I totally hear where that could be the case. You can't be like, here's step 1, 2, 3, 4. I also love what you said, and it said this just, I mean everybody can take what they want from, from these four steps, but for me it was, you're never going back to the same relationship ever.
Justin (30:56):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>.
Erin (30:56):
And you
Justin (30:57):
Can't, that one didn't work. <Laugh>, if it worked Yeah. Get in the situation we're in. Right. <laugh>
Erin (31:02):
And I had just thought you, you know, everybody listens and takes, puts it filters it through their own lens. And for me that just hit home on so many factors. Like I, it's just, it's a perfect example and it's, we should evolve. It should not be the same. Right. We need these conversations and these hard moments to evolve as human beings. We learn something from each one of them. But I think those four steps are key, especially as leaders to know that we have to create this place of psychological safety. We have to repair that trust if we want to retain top talent. Is there anything that you wish people knew about how to build trust that we haven't talked about?
Justin (31:43):
Yes. Well I wanted to piggyback on what you just said, even about like managers and this idea that you're never going back to the same relationship. It's because trust is a team sport. And if it's, and if it hasn't worked, I need us to figure out together what we need from each other and how we're gonna show up differently. So this idea that trust is a team sport, you know what's interesting? I, I'm, I, I work with the NCAA and this, this athlete told me this. They say trust is never built on the field. It is only carried onto it. And so if you, if your team already lacks trust and that's what they go into on a project or they have a big event, trust is what people are going to experience. And what we try to do is we try to do the team events to build trust, but it's like they just, they brought the lack of trust into the event.
Justin (32:31):
Right? Totally. So it's like what are we as leaders doing to build the trust and the safety of all that so that when we get to the hard moments, when we get to the moments that are high pressured, when we get to the moments where everyone's working crazy hours, trust is not built, then it's built before it. And it's only carried into that situation. And then I think the, the last two things about trust that we haven't said that I, that I wish people knew is that I always ask people, do you think trust is do you think trust is given or do you think trust is earned? And the majority will always tell you in leadership that they think it is earned. Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. And I think that philosophy is dangerous.
Erin (33:09):
I do too. I do too. I love that. I love it
Justin (33:12):
Because if everyone is standing around waiting for everyone else to earn it, no one is giving it. And trust can't even begin to happen in your relationship when you're waiting for someone else to start. And so I always say trust is built, it's both, it's given, it's earned. And here's the thing about people that really I know a lot of people are like, well, I'm just tired of trusting people and they're really bitter. And sometimes, and it's because they gave so much trust to people, but then they didn't watch what people did with it. Mm. And they, based on what they did, they kept giving more to try to prove to them that they could trust them. But you kept giving to people who didn't deserve it in the process. Yeah.
Erin (33:54):
And
Justin (33:55):
So trust is both of this giving and earning. And then the last thing I would say with this is if you ever have to sacrifice trust in yourself for trust with someone else, you are in the wrong relationship. Mm.
Erin (34:15):
Okay. Listen, if I had a choir, we'd do a hallelujah. I mean that is what's up right there. That I, so there's so many things I could talk to you forever about. And I think the first part that you just said about being, you know, trust isn't happening on the field. Right. Like that to me as an improviser, I mean I've had many different teams, right? So I'm, I'm taking it, I'm getting outta hashtag sports and I'm putting it on a stage <laugh>, and lemme tell you something, you can watch a team on stage who is not gelling together in an improv set. Like very quickly. I had a team very early in my career where we, I did not trust anybody. I didn't, I did not feel safe on stage. And that showed, and then once I found a group that I felt really safe with, I mean the, the performances were just incredible.
Erin (35:06):
And you can relate that in a business setting, right? Like exactly what you said with projects. I think it's so and and going into what you said too about is it earned or is it given, I mean you gotta give it, but you also have to take a step back. And that's where I think that you were you were getting to is you have to feel like you've hired the right people. Let tell them how to do it, show them what you know, and then let them do their job and trust that they will. And I love that 'cause so many leaders hold on too tightly and can't let go of that control. And that's where the trust is lost.
Justin (35:41):
Yeah. Can I it was funny years ago I was in Germany and I decided to go horseback riding and I was putting the bridle on the horse and the owner stopped me 'cause I think I was being a little too rough holding the reins a little too tight. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> like you're talking about. And she stopped me and she goes, Justin, be gentle. These horses do everything for us. Aw.
Erin (36:03):
And
Justin (36:03):
I thought about leadership and about how many of us hold the reins way too tightly in our people make the process miserable for them, but without them we can't do anything. Totally.
Erin (36:15):
But
Justin (36:15):
You know, and I was like, and so this, it sent me down this whole rabbit hole about the impact that gentleness has in leadership. Yes. the value that it creates. It's like I can still speak my truth and be transparent but be gentle in the tactfulness of how I deliver that. And when I'm able to do that, it's a better experience for all of us.
Erin (36:38):
She needed to hear that tonight. You know what? She's gonna get on her slack channel. She's gonna get on her slack channel and change up the vibe. Okay. There was that again was for me. Thank you. Oh my god. Okay. I feel like I could just have you on this show many times because this is so impactful. This is my last question for you. We always say and improve it. Your, it is that thing that drives you, the thing that you're put here on this earth to do. What is Justin's it?
Justin (37:09):
I'm gonna pause 'cause I don't want to, I I have a canned answer, but I'm gonna, I want to sit with myself and say, is that answer really what I want to say? I like that. Yes. So what is my, what is my it, right? What I'm here to do, I'm gonna change it and say I want to help wake people up and show them a little bit more light in their world.
Erin (37:32):
Yes. And you know what, that is real. Okay. That's your intention. Real. That's it. I
Justin (37:40):
Look, I dunno why I've never said this. I have a, I have a bracelet sometimes when I speak that I wear that underneath of it. It says light warrior. Yes. And I've never really, I've never really thought through that. But it was just like, I just hope that we, in the work that all of us get to do in leadership in business, I think our job is to help people remind them of who they are when they're at their best and help bring a little bit more light in their world. And when they do that, the business benefits, right? So it's like it's a win-win for everybody when we're willing to slow down and a little, spend a little bit of time of doing that work with the people that we lead.
Erin (38:15):
You are a light warrior. You gotta keep going. Thank you. You gotta keep going and I'm here for this and I know so many people are as well and I want everybody to know where they can find you, where they can find your books. Y'all might get an autograph copy, I don't know, but I got four autograph books, <laugh>. Okay. So tell everybody where they can find you.
Justin (38:36):
Sure. So all social media JP inspires, so you can find me on any of that. And then, yeah, all books on Amazon, you know, so yeah. So we'll do that and hopefully, and I would love for you drop a nugget. Let us hit us up, let us know what stood out to you. And you know, that's, that's the goal, right? It is just to resonate with people and hope one little nugget that we shared today was exactly the message that maybe someone needed to hear. That's, and thank you for the work that you're doing. I appreciate you.
Erin (39:02):
I appreciate you, you were inspiring many people, myself included, and I know everybody is gonna walk away from this real conversation. I love that intention. It was, it was so real and it was like, I even love that you paused to give yourself that moment of this is what my real answer is. That was real. That's what's up. You were a light. Keep going. Thank you for being on this show, Justin.
Justin (39:24):
Thank you Aaron. I appreciate you
Erin (39:34):
Y'all. Okay. I am obsessed. Justin, thank you for your light, for your energy, for your realness. I hope that you enjoyed today's show. Make sure you check out all the show note links if you wanna get Justin's books. And I will tell you that, you know, I love to give you some tangible homework here today. I love what Justin talked about. You talked about energy, it's a presence and a mindset. And you lead love, communicate on the level of your energy. We also talked a lot about trust and it's trust given or is trust earned is a question he likes to ask his audiences. And it's a question I want you to ask yourself. Is trust given or is trust earned? I really resonate with him on the fact that trust should be given, be given. I want you to think about your own leadership style today and where you're at with trust.
Erin (40:33):
I want you to think about what we discussed with Justin, which were those three factors to building trust and the four steps to repairing trust. And know that if you are in a relationship or have any type of working relationship right now that needs repairing. As we mentioned, healing is not linear. These steps do not have to happen in sequential order. But remember the relationship will never be the same. And that's okay. You take ownership, you renegotiate the relationship you ask for or extend forgiveness and then you demonstrate a change in your behavior. I want you to think about which one of these steps that you are at with a current relationship that you have. And if there's there, we all have them. Okay? There's not like is there a relationship that needs to repair its trust? We all have relationships that are challenging. It's a part of life.
Erin (41:29):
We're given those relationships by the way, because they teach us lessons that we need to learn. So think about that relationship in your life that needs repairing and think about which one of these four steps that you're at and how you can apply Justin's methodology to that relationship. As always my improve it peeps. I just want you to know I'm so grateful for you for investing in yourself. That is the theme of this month's show. Showing up here, giving yourself space and time to listen and learn and then apply 'cause we're all about that application is going to make you the highest version of you possible. I want you to keep failing and keep improving because this world, we really do need your special it that only you can bring. I will see you next week.
Erin (42:21):
Hey friend, did you enjoy today's show? If so, head on over to iTunes to rate and subscribe. So you never miss an episode. Now, did I mention that when you leave a five star review of the Improve IT podcast, an actual team of humans does a happy dance? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. That's right. So leave a review for us on iTunes, screenshot it and send me an email at info at learn to improve it.com. I'll send you a personalized video back as a thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Improve It Peeps. I'll see you next Wednesday.