Episode 227: Imposter Syndrome Got You Down? Get on the Up with Jule Kim
Jule Kim is an Executive Leadership Coach, imposter syndrome expert, and keynote speaker.
Jule joins Erin today to discuss what we think imposter syndrome is versus what it actually is, the differences between imposter syndrome and people pleasing, and why her biggest lesson is to get your head on straight before you do anything.
If you’re up for some hard truths to examine about yourself (and strategies to improve!) – this is the episode for you.
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Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
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Episode 227 Transcription
Erin Diehl (00:01.82)
Welcome to the Improve It Podcast. I am thrilled, honored, all the things to have you here. Thank you so much.
Jule (00:11.094)
Thank you so much for having me, Erin. It's always a pleasure.
Erin Diehl (00:15.139)
I mean, for real. And we were just talking before we hit record, how people find you. And I found you the same way, which is through your TikTok, your Instagram. Actually, my team found you. Let me give them the full credit that they deserve. And then they were like, you need to talk to her. And I was like, yes, I do. So I'm so excited. And I wanna have you on the show, particularly right now, because we're talking about radical empathy. We're talking about...
showing up in a way that makes others feel seen and heard. So let me start here. What set a one word intention to guide our conversation today? What's one word that you want to either give or receive through this conversation?
Jule (01:05.742)
Okay, there was a rebel part of me that was like, one word, I have two words, but I will go with one word. I'm gonna say honesty. That's gonna be the guiding light for me for you and I talking today.
Erin Diehl (01:09.639)
Yeah, do it. Okay, okay.
Yeah!
Erin Diehl (01:18.875)
I like that. Okay, we're getting, I love it already. That to me actually goes hand in hand with radical empathy. And I wanna just ask you, what does radical empathy mean to you?
Jule (01:35.23)
I would say it's the ability to really put yourself in someone else's shoes, to try and feel what they're feeling, see what they're seeing, and understand their experience as much as you can, right? We can't get into their brains or their skin, but we can try to see their perspective. And to do that before falling into the trap of leaving all your stories, right? Every moment we're constantly making up stories or interpretations of what we're seeing.
Erin Diehl (01:49.546)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (02:00.498)
Yeah.
Jule (02:08.28)
To me, radical empathy is the ability to exercise that reminder, that constant awareness of someone else's experience before our own.
Erin Diehl (02:17.423)
I love it. And that goes hand in hand with honesty. Look at these full circle moments, okay? We're having all over the place. I wanna also talk a lot about this concept of people pleasing, imposter syndrome. When we found you, I was so drawn particularly to imposter syndrome because so many people, myself included, listening to the show,
deal with it on a daily basis. So how would you describe imposter syndrome and why is it such a challenge for so many people?
Jule (03:02.006)
So just on like a very basic definition level, imposter syndrome is that feeling like you're a fraud, like you don't belong and you're about to be found out. But what a lot of people don't understand, what makes imposter syndrome what it is, a little bit beyond just self-doubt, right? Because the truth is we all experience moments of self-doubt. Imposter syndrome is a little bit special because you're constantly attributing your success to other people or to other things.
So if you're someone who goes around thinking, I just got lucky. Oh, this, this work I did nothing special. They just like me. I had connections. If you're constantly attributing your success to other things, that's one of the key aspects that makes imposter syndrome what it is. That's why you don't internalize your success. And that's what contributes to that feeling of being a fraud.
Erin Diehl (03:56.267)
Hmm. Okay, honesty is just like coming up left and right for me right now in this conversation. What, is there a difference between imposter syndrome and people pleasing? Because it sounds like imposter syndrome, you want that outside validation as well. And I'm assuming with people, you know what assuming means. So let me ask you, what is the difference between imposter syndrome and people pleasing?
Jule (04:26.446)
That is such a good question. So off the top of my head, I'm going to say it's the basic needs that are being addressed. So imposter syndrome happens when we unfortunately equate our confidence. Okay, we're building all of our confidence off of our capabilities, right? How smart we are, what are we doing? What successes have we achieved? Okay, so then what happens if you're invited to a conference where everybody else is more accomplished?
Erin Diehl (04:33.863)
Mmm.
Jule (04:54.662)
You're suddenly no longer the smartest person in the room. You're probably not going to feel great about yourself if you are deep in the clutches of imposter syndrome. People-pleasing, I would say the primary need there is for safety. So these are people who, from a very young age, learned that their survival depends on the goodwill of other people. They're constantly doing for others because they feel obligated to, not because they want to.
Erin Diehl (05:07.435)
Mmm.
Erin Diehl (05:15.668)
Mmm.
Jule (05:23.138)
but they do it out of a fear of loss of relationship, loss of status, loss of connection.
Erin Diehl (05:28.879)
Oh my God. Listen, I could lay down on a couch. We could therapy my childhood with that right there. Cause literally, woo! Yes, that hits home. And that makes complete sense. People pleasing is needing a form of safety because that loss of not being liked and that basic need of being loved doesn't feel like it's being met. Oh my God. That's brilliant. I love that so much.
So when you, you're a life coach, which you have so many certifications. I was looking at your website. I was like, she's got them all. I don't even know what they are, but she has them all. As your experience as a life coach, when you start working with someone, what are some of the common signals to you as their coach that someone is dealing with imposter syndrome or people pleasing?
Jule (06:29.302)
For imposter syndrome, it'll be pretty obvious. Like these are people who will say right off the bat, I don't feel very confident. I don't think I can apply to that job. Who am I? So if that like, who am I to be doing fill in the blank, that's very clear signals. If they fill out my intake form and they say literally, I don't think I'm all that special and the people who hired me are going to find out, again, very typical.
Erin Diehl (06:39.314)
Mm.
Jule (06:58.354)
in different arenas, like let's say you're a student. And by the way, imposter syndrome runs really rampant through academia and also in the professional fields like the workplace, but especially in academia, people who are saying they felt they only got into their school because the school made a mistake. The admissions panel confused their name.
Erin Diehl (07:17.323)
Thanks for watching!
Jule (07:20.69)
There's another person out there with the same name, and that person was supposed to get this admission letter. So there are so many crazy excuses people will make up. Now, for people pleasing, the signs will be different. People pleasers tend to display a lot of resentment. So they're complaining about things like being taken advantage of, how they don't feel appreciated, how they're always doing for others, and no one seems to return the favor.
Erin Diehl (07:37.372)
Mmm.
Erin Diehl (07:47.271)
Wow. Okay. I did not expect that one. I'm not going to lie to you. That is interesting. Huh. That tracks. I'm recovering people-pleaser. I'm like, wait. Just, when you think of people-pleasers, I don't think of resentment. I think of this need to be liked. And so...
Jule (07:57.59)
Okay, what's... wait, what was interesting?
Erin Diehl (08:13.531)
I'm even think I'm just gonna call out myself here. You know, I'm gonna, I speak for my audience but I'm speaking for myself and I'm looking to my microphone when I do that. So just so you know that my microphone is my audience. Okay, you're all over here to my left side. When I talk even to my therapist sometimes I find myself trying to make her like me versus show up with resentment. And I'm like, and I had a therapist before her.
lived in a different state and she said to me, Erin, you don't have to make me laugh. Like this is, like you don't have, I'm like, no, this is how I show up in the world humor. She's like, no, that's not how you need to show up in here. So when you said resentment, I was like, wow, I wasn't expecting that. But I think there is a deep underlying root of resentment under there when you.
show up and have want other people to like you instantly.
Jule (09:13.406)
Yeah, there can be, you know, it's sort of like the M&M, right? There's the candy shell that we see on the outside. And that shell is the thing that we're showing to others. So it'll be people who look like they're very easy to get along with, or people like yourself, people who are really good at making others laugh or feel at ease. But inside is like, what's really going on? Because that candy shell is the thing that's helped people get by all these years. No, they tend to be very well liked.
Erin Diehl (09:15.178)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (09:25.277)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (09:36.625)
Mm-hmm.
Jule (09:43.49)
but at the same time inside they often feel trampled or run over.
Erin Diehl (09:43.839)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (09:47.923)
Oh, so good. So good. I love that so much. And I want to talk about, I mean, you've worked with some incredible people. You have so many client success stories. Is there either a personal, from your experience, or even a client success story that serves as a case study for you, as somebody who really got through imposter syndrome in a positive way?
Jule (10:18.314)
You know, imposter syndrome, I think for myself, is probably going to be the biggest thing that stands out. You know, I do have clients, for one. There's one person that I worked with maybe a little over a year ago, and she is so young, okay. It's always interesting to me, or like even astounding. Sometimes you see those lists of, right, 30 under 30. But when you actually meet one of those people and you actually get to know them,
Erin Diehl (10:42.868)
Yeah.
Jule (10:47.178)
It's crazy how they are because they're able to just turn on a dime, right? They're able to change almost just like that. So she had this program she wanted to launch. She was very afraid. She was definitely feeling imposter syndrome. She was asking me questions like, what do I do if somebody asks me a question I can't answer? And I'm like, what do you think is going to happen? How do you think you're going to handle that? And she went on to launch that program and sell it out. You know, she.
Erin Diehl (11:14.85)
Mmm.
Jule (11:16.478)
I forget how many people she got in there, but it was crazy. And I was like, was there any doubt? There was no doubt in my mind that she would be able to do that. But of course it's just in her mind. But for myself, my own personal struggles, okay? I'm Korean, I grew up in Alabama, enough said. So it's like you grow up your whole life feeling like you don't belong and it's pretty hard to deal with. Everyone is going to go through some version of trying to meet that need to belong. So we all have it. We all have this very strong need to belong.
For me, I was using my intellect, right? Being the smartest kid in the class. For others, it may be being the class clown, having that gift of making people laugh or always being entertaining. I don't have skills there. I have mad respect for comedians, people who can do improv. I'm like, I don't know how you do that. Yeah, but for me. Yeah.
Erin Diehl (12:07.928)
Me either, me either. Nah, I'm just kidding.
Jule (12:14.402)
But yeah, for that need for connection. I was always that kid you could depend on in class. Hey, I forgot my homework, can I copy? Can I copy your homework? That was me, I was always helping people with school and that was my thing. And again, you know, if you're used to being the smartest person in the class, what then happens when you enter an arena where that's no longer true? You're going to have some severe challenges, I guarantee it.
Erin Diehl (12:21.33)
Uh huh.
Erin Diehl (12:38.772)
Mmm.
Jule (12:43.178)
And for me, that point came when I entered photography. I left the corporate world, left Amazon, started my own photography business, and just everything came to a screeching halt for me. I was not used to feeling so bad at something. It took me two years to get out of that. I made no money in the first two years of having a photography business. It was just an insanely expensive hobby.
Erin Diehl (12:56.733)
Hmm.
Erin Diehl (13:07.239)
is so interesting. Okay, can I impact this a little bit? Cause I have so many questions within what you just said. How long did you live in Alabama? Did you live there until high, end of high school? And then, and then what, and then you went to undergrad in Alabama, in California? Okay. So when you, first of all, I love that you share that story. Thank you for sharing that. Cause I know so many people listening have felt like they don't belong. And I know...
Jule (13:23.062)
Yeah, out in California. Yeah.
Erin Diehl (13:36.947)
That's where imposter syndrome creeps in. And I know that definitely somebody listening is taking that and saying, thank you for using your voice to say that. When you got out of school, you got a job at Amazon. Is that right? Was that you started in corporate America?
Jule (13:55.246)
Not straight out of school. So I went to law school, then I dropped out. So again, like another round of imposter experience that I just didn't know. Look, when you go to law school and you start asking questions like, what if I don't like this? To actually see people kind of edging away from you. You know, like you have some contagious disease, like don't come near me. You know, it can be a little bit strange.
Erin Diehl (14:17.668)
Yeah.
Jule (14:21.798)
And then on top of that, I was going to law school in Iowa where it's like my whole law school class was 99% white. So it's again, that feeling of not belonging, totally sticking out like a sore thumb. But since that had been my experience my whole life growing up, if anything, California was really strange for me. To suddenly be among so many people in California, I believe has the plurality. Like their biggest demographic is actually Asians.
Erin Diehl (14:29.055)
Yeah.
Jule (14:50.094)
I was not used to that. It was a huge culture shock. Yeah. But after undergrad, I went to law school, dropped out in my second year, spent a couple of years gaming. So there's again, the not belonging because the gaming industry is mostly dudes. I finally get a job in corporate, start working as a writer. And that's where I kind of stayed for the next 10 years.
Erin Diehl (15:05.194)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (15:12.879)
Okay, and then how did we get here? How did we land from there to photography to Life Coach?
Jule (15:22.878)
I would say it's mainly looking for that thing that I was really meant to do. If you grow up in a typical middle class family.
Erin Diehl (15:27.176)
Yeah.
Jule (15:32.942)
People have aspirations for you, right? That your parents, they have expectations. They want you to be the first whatever in your family, or they want you to carry on the family business, the legacy. For me, with the immigrant parents, it's very much highly pressured for you to succeed because then that's what makes all of their sacrifices worth it.
They come from that survival mentality. Safety and financial security is the most important thing. And to get there, that means you are going to take high status, high paying careers, doctor, lawyer, engineer.
You should have heard the stuff coming out of my mom's mouth when I dropped out of law school. It was not pretty.
Erin Diehl (16:18.475)
Hmm, I believe you on so many levels. Okay, and then, so you followed your own gut, your own intuition, you listened to yourself, you were honest with yourself, and you had to overcome many bouts of imposter syndrome to get you to this place. That's so cool.
Jule (16:41.298)
Yeah, I would say that's fair. It's, it takes a lot of, I don't know what it is, some combination of factors where you're just not willing to put up with the status quo. You know, there are parts of me where I almost think of myself as a lazy person or as a person who has no patience.
Erin Diehl (16:52.008)
Yeah.
Jule (16:58.646)
But every time you put on something, you know, a career or some sort of profession that doesn't feel like the right fit, it, it always felt like you're squeezing yourself into the outfit. That's just too small, right? It's like, why are you doing this? There's so many other options.
Erin Diehl (17:10.311)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (17:13.951)
Oh, I feel that on a real level. And you know when you find the thing that you're supposed to do because it just feels so natural and it's so easy to do it versus the other way feels like you're pulling and pushing and trying so hard and it doesn't fit. Would you say that's fair?
Jule (17:34.526)
I would say the natural part is fair. I don't know about easy, because coaching was one of those moments where, let's just be frank, I came into this thing with so much ego. I was always the person that my friends, my family always turned to. They wanted my perspective, they wanted my advice. So I thought, I'm gonna kill it. I've already been coaching my whole life. No.
I didn't mean crap. Okay. It was just, that was so much ego. I didn't really understand what coaching was. So for me, coaching was actually not easy, but it was completely the natural fit. And what you said earlier about you, when you find it, you just know that is how it was for me. It's like the same thing when I met my husband, I just knew. So you hear people saying that about their spouses or their partners and that.
Erin Diehl (17:59.549)
Yeah.
Jule (18:23.346)
used to be the most aggravating thing I ever heard people say. Like I just, it would make me so angry, but now I get it. And to me finding your calling or discovering your calling, it's kind of the same.
Erin Diehl (18:37.147)
Yeah, yeah, I totally hear you on all of those aspects. I wanna talk to you about something you just said, which was you were coming from ego. And I think obviously ego and love are two separate things, completely separate things. When you think of imposter syndrome and people who struggle with it, how much of that struggle is from ego?
Jule (19:08.562)
I would say it's all of it, because people with imposter syndrome are in a place of the ego trying to defend itself, like really, really hard. So you will see people who get that promotion, and two days later, I kid you not, they're already over it and they're looking for the next thing. They're like the bottomless pit, they're never satisfied, because it's that ego looking to protect itself, looking to constantly prove itself.
Erin Diehl (19:10.576)
Yeah.
Jule (19:36.49)
And this is how people are measuring their self-worth. But on the flip side, there are other people who just don't seem to get anywhere. It's like their wheels just keep spinning in place. And again, it's that ego trying to defend itself. Because you know what? If you never try, you can at least say, it's because I never tried. You can't say you made a mistake or you can't say you failed because you never tried. So you always give yourself a little bit of that out there.
So you can say, it's not really me, it's because I never tried.
Erin Diehl (20:09.987)
Yeah, oh my God, so cool. That is so accurate. I wanna talk about the ego and people pleasing too, because when we talk about ego, I think a lot of people need to just, let's define ego for somebody listening. Can you give your definition of ego?
Jule (20:31.778)
That's pretty hard for me. Like I'll just be honest. I would say in my understanding of ego, it's your vision of who you are, right? Like where do you rank in the world against other people, especially? It is not who you truly are, it's who you maybe think you should be.
Erin Diehl (20:54.76)
Mm-hmm. And I think a lot of ego is a scarcity mindset. There's not enough, you know, there's versus an abundance mindset. There's enough, everybody is welcome. There's more love, right? So when you think of people pleasing and ego, how do those two work together?
Jule (21:17.646)
It's a really strange thing because I think what people pleasers, and I've seen this across the board, because I think every single client I work with is also a people pleaser. They tend to have this internal conflict between wanting to recognize their own self. And I mean that by you're not like trying to necessarily judge yourself as like the shit or you know, king of the world or anything, but at least to recognize who you are.
and what you've done, just recognize the truth. But people pleasers have now entered this pattern of constantly placing other people above themselves. So they have taught themselves that they rank lower. When in reality, I don't think that's even a question. It's not a question or a judgment whether you rank higher or lower than other people. You just are, right? You exist in this world and so do other people. But people pleasers have
created this automatic habit of constantly placing other people above to address that need for survival. So the ego does not like that. The ego hates that. So that's that internal conflict. That's that resentment starting to build.
Erin Diehl (22:28.958)
Mmm.
Mmm. Oh my God, that is spot on. That's so good. And I've never thought of it in that particular way. The ego is so interesting to me. It's so interesting. It comes up in so many different conversations. And I feel like about imposter syndrome, specifically a lot of people listening, might question that they're living in ego or are they not living in ego? What are some ways?
people will know, hey, this is from my ego, not from my heart.
Jule (23:07.234)
lay it out there, we are all, all of us, living from a place of ego, to some degree. When you're not in ego, you will know because you are not making judgments. Okay, so one of the weirdest things about people pleasers, well, weird, if you don't already know this, is they tend to be the most judgmental people on earth. Okay, so if we're talking about that ego, right?
Erin Diehl (23:22.504)
Mm.
Jule (23:37.258)
Because they're so fiercely judging themselves, they're also fiercely judging others. So if you know someone who's a people pleaser, who also seems to have unrealistic, difficultly, like insanely high standards or expectations to meet, they have maybe some perfectionism going on, that's all ego. So ego and judgment go hand in hand. When you're not operating from ego, you'll know because you're not making
that evaluation or assessment. You're not critiquing others, you're not judging others. And you're not judging others as good or bad. You are accepting the full essence of who they are and just taking that in. So it is operating from that place of love like you were talking about. When you are feeling love, like pure love without condition, without judgment, you're not operating from ego.
Erin Diehl (24:09.724)
and
Erin Diehl (24:30.823)
Oh, I love that. Self-acceptance. Self, and it's an internal job before you can give it outwardly.
Jule (24:39.654)
Always. Okay, here's a question for you, because you worked in improv, right? You've done this whole round. Yeah. So if we're talking about imposter syndrome and people pleasing, like what have you seen?
Erin Diehl (24:41.031)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (24:44.843)
Mm-hmm. I do. I do. This is my wife. Yes.
Erin Diehl (24:53.343)
Oh man, great question. I mean, I'm a product of it. I definitely think I trapped myself and blocked myself creatively, even on stage for many years, because I was living in this place of, oh, I'm not good enough. I would say it was definitely an imposter syndrome beginning for me. And I've seen a lot of performers who...
this happens in life, but on stage we call it get in their head on stage. And they're not present and the audience knows it. And so they're not listening, they're not reacting in the moment truthfully. There's that honesty again. And so it's real. I mean, I had it as an early performer. I was in my head constantly, cause I was like, oh my God, I don't deserve to be on this stage with her. And so instead of being in the moment and being in the scene, I'm thinking about
what's in my head and I'm ruining everything. Because improv is all give and take, right? It's like the last thing you say, I'm gonna add to it. And together we're gonna create this beautiful scene. And it's so hard as an early performer, or at least it was for me, to check your ego at the door and be like, I'm just here to play. I'm gonna show up and just be super present and give whatever the scene needs. So I did that for sure. And I took a long time for me to break that as a performer.
Even as a speaker, I do keynote speaking, it took me like a year and a half to overcome imposter syndrome. Literally my ego was in my head for, like for the first year I took the stage by myself because I'm used to having a team with me. So that was so interesting. But it was, it's just crazy. I mean, it happens in every profession. It happens in every industry, academia, but as a performer, oh my God, I mean,
Cause you're constantly being judged and you're constantly judging yourself. And if I had a bad show, oh, bye, I'm down for two days. I'm like, I'm the worst human ever. And it really stuck with me in the beginning. That was hard to learn how to get over. But I mean, I had a lot of bad shows. I'm gonna keep it real. And then they got better. And I just learned, yeah.
Jule (27:10.546)
Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh, I can relate to that. Okay, so I have a burning question.
Erin Diehl (27:16.553)
Yeah.
Jule (27:19.33)
For being on stage or for being the public speaker, either way, right, you're on stage or in front of people, their eyeballs on you. How do you deal with that moment when you say something or you present something and it doesn't land the way you expect it to, right? Instead of getting a laugh, like, it's just dead silence. How do you deal with that? Like, that would be so hard.
Erin Diehl (27:24.98)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (27:39.187)
Such a good question. And I think it depends on what I'm, if I'm like trying to be funny, and I know this is a joke, if I'm doing a keynote that's a memorized thing and there's no punch, I'm like, oh, in my head, I'm like, take that out for next time, you know, and I just move on. But if I'm performing improv and there is no script and the audience doesn't laugh, I'm gonna think about it for a few seconds in my head. Honestly, I'm gonna go, that sucks, you know? And it's gonna probably stick with me.
until I get through a couple more lines of dialogue and move on and then we get the laugh. But how comedy happens in improv is the truth in the comedy and the genuine reaction. It's all about honesty, like going back to your word. It's really about reacting in the moment honestly as your character or if you're just playing yourself to that person and those are the genuine laughs. Like when you actually act honestly from a...
from a place that we call it playing close to your spine. When you play close to your spine and you are genuinely reacting, like it's just art. It's like there's no other word, but when you don't get it, I mean, you start to live for it. And when you don't get it, you're craving it. So then you might go bigger. That might be a reaction that I would do. That I would do.
Jule (28:59.774)
Ooh. Oh my gosh, I love that. I love that. It's-
Erin Diehl (29:04.575)
Yeah.
Jule (29:08.646)
Mad respect, mad respect for you. Anybody who does comedy or improv. And the reason why I asked you that is because I attended a comedy club in London, just a few months ago, had a lineup of I think four comedians. And the person who was headlining the show was actually probably the person the audience reacted to the least. There were many moments where she would have a joke and then...
Erin Diehl (29:11.762)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (29:29.568)
Mmm, yeah.
Jule (29:34.294)
she would get like the pity laugh, like a little bit scattered throughout the audience. And then she started making comments about, God, like this audience is just like, ugh, tonight. And I was like, are you trying to blame us? Like something about her energy felt really off. Like that's what it was for me.
Erin Diehl (29:46.055)
Yeah!
Erin Diehl (29:50.147)
Yeah, and the audience knows. And when you know, you're just like, man, I just gotta get through this set or I gotta get through, sometimes you don't gel with an audience, right? One thing, this is just something to piggyback off what you said, I say in a talk of mine is, when you watch a really good improv show, you're watching hundreds of thousands of hours of people who have gotten back up from
those falls from those moments that really suck. And they've had to put powerful positive thoughts in their head so that can affect the words that they say and the interactions that they have with each other on stage. It's really like a mental game. It is an internal mental game, which is what you coach on, which is why I love this talk, because this is so applicable to everyone, whether you're an entrepreneur, whether you're in corporate America, whether you work in HR, talent development, like.
no matter where you are in life, this is such a struggle. And I have to ask you a question because it's a burning question for me that you said, you said people pleasing and perfectionism go hand in hand. Talk to me about that. Like I wanna hear about that because I call myself a recovering perfectionist, turn, tip, fail, fluencer. But within that, I mean, there's also people placing.
And I know so many people, women specifically, who identify as perfectionists and people pleasers.
Jule (31:25.47)
Okay, with perfectionism especially, there is a running theme through perfectionism, through people pleasing, and through imposter syndrome. And it's really about your self-image. This constant evaluation of how your image is being perceived by others. You will know this is you if you constantly feel this need to be the authority in front of other people. If you have real challenges,
being vulnerable, showing the messy shit behind your life. If you cannot do those things, you are someone who is really locked into your self image and how you're being seen by others. Okay, so for people pleasing and perfectionism going hand in hand together, it's because these people are so...
Erin Diehl (31:58.271)
Mm.
Jule (32:16.29)
What is the word? They're just so used to this automatic behavior of constantly assessing their relationships with other people and feeling like what they have depends on the goodwill of other people. They start to push the envelope. They start to demand that everything be perfect. And if less than perfect, then they'll feel that threatens the relationship, that threatens their status at work.
Erin Diehl (32:29.748)
Mm-hmm.
Jule (32:41.87)
Okay, so this is going back to those insanely high expectations or standards that they have. People pleasers can be some of the most difficult people to work with because they're coming from this mode of, I have to protect myself. And in order to protect myself, I have to have everything perfect. And then they start to put those expectations on others. So they can be micromanagers. They can get mad at other people for not reading their minds because they're constantly reading other people's minds. They will.
they will feel offended that someone isn't anticipating their needs because they're always anticipating everyone else's needs.
Erin Diehl (33:20.471)
Amen. Book drop. Mic drop. All the things. It seems so exhausting. Like I feel like perfectionism is a exhausting way to live. There's never a turn off switch.
And why is that? Why is there not an off switch?
Jule (33:43.114)
I mean, number one, you're facing perfectionism, which it's one of those things that people will say about themselves. Like oh, it's a bad thing, but like really it's a good thing. It's almost like that humble brag, right? You go to an interview and they ask you what's your biggest weakness. It's like, oh, I'm a perfectionist, you know? It's like, I'm not really going to show you my like real weakness. I'm going to show you like this weakness. That's really a strength. So that's number one is because people perceive perfectionism to be a good thing.
Erin Diehl (33:54.716)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (34:00.797)
Yeah.
Jule (34:12.47)
because it has benefited them. It's gotten them a lot of things in life. But perfectionism is this push to the unhealthy extreme, because it's all a spectrum. We want some effort in there. We want some pursuit of thriving or becoming better, improving. But perfectionism is like this far end of that spectrum. And this is why I say the pursuit of perfectionism is the pursuit of the absolute worst in ourselves.
Erin Diehl (34:12.549)
Mm.
Jule (34:41.31)
true perfectionists are people who will not accept anything less than perfect. So this is the person they're shooting for 100%. They're not going to be happy with 99% or 98%. It's the voice in their head that says, this is shit. I have to do it all over. They're that person who's going to rip up the speech that they wrote, you know, rip up the drawing or the painting and start from square one.
So people will confuse perfectionism with the pursuit of excellence. And the key difference here is the pursuit of excellence is that desire to improve while accepting that what you have in the moment is good enough. For where you are in your journey, it's good enough.
Erin Diehl (35:22.824)
Mm.
Erin Diehl (35:29.277)
So good. I'm just, you know, it all makes sense. It all makes sense. And I wanna ask you, I love this question, in your journey, are there any lessons that you wish that you learned sooner?
Jule (35:49.79)
I would say the one key lesson, I mean, there are many lessons, right? Like I could toss them out there. You'll see some of those and like my affirmations and stuff, like know your limits, confront the truth about yourself, learn to accept yourself. But like the overarching umbrella there is get your head on straight. Okay, get your head straight. Because what I didn't understand for so long is that most people's eyeballs are on what they should be doing, what they should be achieving.
What are the action steps? What are the frameworks? You will not be able to do that if you don't get your head on straight. What are you thinking? What are you feeling? What are the beliefs that are running in the background of your mind? And if you don't have any of that stuff sorted out, that's how you end up making two years with no money, right, in a business. This is how you end up never applying to that job that you so desperately want, that you know you will be perfect for.
This is how you end up not being able to say what you really think in meetings. So everyone thinks you're a wallflower.
Like you have to address that stuff that's going on there because it's all of that, it's that mental stuff, your thoughts, your feelings dictate what actions you take, which then dictate your results. So the common advice out there is take action, take action. What they fail to really address though is you will never take action if you don't fix your mind.
Erin Diehl (37:07.401)
That's it.
Erin Diehl (37:17.511)
I'm just, I'm just doing like a dance over here for you because I'm like, yes, and yes, like, yes, I, yes. I literally have a whole talk on this. Like it's so fricking true. And you must address your mind before you can go out there and just do it like Nike said, you know? Like you really do have to have your head on straight. And I love that. And I'm glad that you're bringing that lesson to us now.
and hopefully somebody listening can take that lesson and apply it. I have loved talking to you. I could literally talk to you like for two hours because this is such interesting information. Is there anything that we haven't talked about when it comes to imposter syndrome? Are people pleasing that you wanna leave our audience with?
Jule (38:07.034)
I would say take a real hard look at your unmet needs. If you don't know what I'm talking about, it's the stuff that you did not get enough of when you were young. Okay, if you're like me, you're in that millennial stage, you had boomer parents. Our parents were of the mindset that it was all about survival. They thought raising their children meant you had a good roof over your head. You had enough food to eat. You had clothes on your back. They sent you to school.
Erin Diehl (38:17.958)
Mm.
Erin Diehl (38:25.104)
Mm-hmm.
Jule (38:37.258)
And that was it. For a lot of these parents, they thought that was the end of their parental responsibility. The concept of emotional support was not really part of their vocabulary. So as a result, so many people in our generation have these needs that were never really addressed, especially on the emotional side. Maybe you're like me, you grew up in a culture that just really downplays emotions. Like that's me putting it nicely.
I grew up with parents that were saying, wipe that look off your face. How dare you show that and be a burden to everyone else around you. Okay, so maybe you're out of touch with your emotions. If you have trouble even noticing what you're feeling, if you have trouble identifying what you're feeling, you very likely have unmet needs and that would be something to sort out.
Erin Diehl (39:14.079)
Mm.
Erin Diehl (39:32.915)
What is there any resource or anything you would recommend for anybody who is like, well, I'm pretty sure I got some. Where do I start?
Jule (39:44.67)
I would say see a therapist, work with a coach, especially if you know you've got some trauma or some deeper wounds in your past. And this is not me saying this from a place of there's something wrong with you, you need to be fixed. I'm saying you are a beautiful person who maybe wants to think about taking the shackles off of you, right? Remove those shackles and go be that person you've always wanted to be in your heart of hearts.
So see a therapist, work with a coach. There are some great books out there. I think there's one called, Do the Work by Nicole Apera.
Erin Diehl (40:20.887)
Oh yeah, love her so much. Holistic psychologist, love it.
Jule (40:26.838)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (40:27.819)
done. Okay, I'm writing this down because we're going to repeat that peeps. I'm so grateful for you coming on the show. You are such an honest, amazing person and I'm so glad that you're a coach. So many people need you. If you could answer this question, this is the last question I always ask everybody. We say it and prove it that it is that thing that everybody is born here to do. It's the reason you're put here on this earth. What is your it?
Jule (41:03.042)
is to tell people the truth about themselves. You may not want to hear it, but you will hear it from me. What you do with it is your choice.
Erin Diehl (41:05.323)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Diehl (41:18.975)
God, that's so good. That might be my favorite it. I'm just going to say it for real. That is it. That it is it. If people want to find you, Joel, where can they find you? Tell us all the things.
Jule (41:31.106)
You'll find me on LinkedIn, Instagram, TikTok, my website, seattlelifecoach.org. I'm on all the places. Chances are you look on the place, you search my name, you'll find me.
Erin Diehl (41:42.215)
You'll find her. Okay, well, I'm so glad we found you. I'm so grateful for this conversation. I know that our improvement peeps are gonna be so grateful too. So thank you so much for joining me and for sharing your light with the world.
Jule (41:56.418)
Thank you so much for having me, Erin. It was so nice to talk to you about this. Thank you.
Erin Diehl (42:01.403)
Ugh, so nice.