Episode 230: Ready to Land Your Dream Job? Matthew Sorensen Shares Insider Tips
Matthew Sorensen is the Creator/Host of The Job Interview Experience podcast. An expert in his field, Matthew is going to share everything you need to know from the perspective of the next person who’s recruiting you for your dream job.
In today’s episode, Erin and Matthew discuss how to say no at the right times because you know what you’re worth, the ONE game changer you haven’t been including in your cover letters until now, and why offering a solution is the most effective way to catapult yourself to the top of the candidate pool.
If you’re looking for foolproof ways to improve your job search experience – this is the episode for you.
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Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
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Episode 230 Transcription
Erin Diehl (00:01.491)
Welcome to the improvement pod. Thank you for being here. Okay, now I've been on your show. Now you're on our show. This is, it feels right. I feel like I had the best time on your show, so I hope I make this the best experience for you. There's no pressure. I'm just putting it on myself, but I'm thrilled because you're here in the month of April, which we're talking about stepping into your power.
Matthew (00:07.65)
Hi, Aaron.
Erin Diehl (00:29.043)
So before we get going, I want to set a one word intention for our time together. It could be a word that you want to give our audience or it could be a word that you're just feeling today. So what's one word you want to give our audience? Oh, I like that. Okay. Y'all have landed in the right place.
Matthew (00:46.271)
solution.
Erin Diehl (00:54.335)
So when you think of stepping into your power, what does that mean to you?
Matthew (01:01.998)
Well, in my line of work and in my career, I've been focused on careers. So hiring people and helping companies set up to add people to the team, whether it's a new role, expanding a role, helping someone move up through a company, interviewed thousands and thousands of people. And the reoccurring theme I've seen is that people are hired because the company needs a solution to a problem. They're not really hiring a person. They're not hiring Matthew.
They're hiring a solution. And for people that are currently in a role, they are a solution. You're a solution to a big problem. And maybe it doesn't seem like a big problem because you're such a great solution, but if things go haywire, say that you leave the job, just you walk out one day in the middle of the day, things can go really, really bad. So you are a valuable solution in your role.
And I think you can expand on that and take your career to even bigger places when you carry that mindset with you and you start to strategize a little bit.
Erin Diehl (02:07.379)
Oh my God, I'm here for this. I know everyone is here for this. And it's so funny because I think about my own team and truly because we're a small business, some of them were hired to truly, because I thought that they had great skill sets and I knew there was going to be a solution. But when I actually look at what compromises our team, everyone is there to solve a specific problem. And...
They do it every single day and they don't even recognize how their contributions make such a difference until they see it come back to us. And so I think what's really cool about that is not only are we gonna talk about solutions, but I hope people leave here today seeing how their contribution, their solution makes a difference and then how you can just like explode that into the world.
Matthew (03:04.214)
Let's do it.
Erin Diehl (03:05.183)
Let's do it. Okay. I want to know this. I know this kind of, but give us just a brief overview of what got you here because you're the host of the job interview experience. How did you get to that place? What led you to the show? You have such a successful show. Tell us just a little bit so we can get to know you.
Matthew (03:27.958)
First of all, thank you for having me. At this point, do we have like a breakfast club? Is this just like our weekly breakfast club where we're hopping online and just talking about the solutions to all the world's problems? Yeah, cheers. If you don't, if, I don't know if people on the podcast can see, are we on video? This is the best water bottle, I found it. It took me decades. This is the best one. This is the, not a sponsor, they don't know me.
Erin Diehl (03:40.995)
Cheers my friend, cheers.
Erin Diehl (03:51.239)
Okay, wait, what is it called?
Matthew (03:56.77)
This is the Ouala and first off, if you have a kid, you can lock it close, there's a button to open it, but it has a straw plus you can chug it. So you can lift it up and drink out of it and it also has a straw, which to me is just perfect. I love it.
Erin Diehl (03:58.515)
A walla.
Erin Diehl (04:04.035)
Thank you.
Erin Diehl (04:08.092)
Okay.
Okay, sold, sold. Call, we need a new sponsor. Unwalla, hit us up, okay. No, that is amazing. And honestly, I'm super here for a straw. I drink way more water if I have a straw, but this is our breakfast club. This is week two of us discussing this, and I feel like, I feel like this is such an interesting angle because we call our audience the improvement peeps. The peeps haven't really done a deep dive.
into their own dream job before. So how can like through your lens, how did you get here and how can you help them find their dream job?
Matthew (04:51.074)
So I'll try and make my career journey short. So I worked as a recruiter and an executive recruiter. I was an executive recruiter at a small boutique firm that was old school. So for anyone listening that has had exposure to recruiting 70s, 80s, 90s, early 2000s, you're mostly just calling into companies, trying to find out who worked there, say you needed to hire a CTO. You'd call in and say, oh, I'm looking to call your CTO and kind of pretend that you're calling because you're maybe a business partner, whatever.
Erin Diehl (05:19.287)
Oh yeah.
Matthew (05:21.43)
So I was trained by someone who was an old school recruiter and really good at her job. And she relocated and I didn't. And so I had been working on ideas on how to start my own firm and some things that I wanted to do different. I'm a little bit outside the box on some things, or maybe just trying to, more so trying to find ways to do this so that it was client focused. I knew I would do great work for the candidates, but how do I make this accessible so I get repeat?
clients and they feel like it's easy to work with me. So I started my own search firm, did that for about four years, and I'm proud to say I did really good work. I mean, people that I placed, like 99% of them, stayed in their roles. Some of them are still there. I mean, years and years and years, looking back, some of them have been there a decade. So I had a lot of repeat customers because of that. I got to learn a lot about what companies want. And when you own a search firm or you're an executive recruiter, that for me, it was mostly small businesses. So I was meeting with a lot of
business owners, maybe they had 10 to 50 people, quickly growing businesses, or medium-sized businesses where you're meeting with typically the C-suite or someone like that to dig into what their needs are. And my experience is, at least as a search from owner, is they tell you things that they wouldn't really tell anyone else. They tell you things that they might not tell their team, what they're looking for, mistakes they made, who works in this role, who doesn't.
And so I got a lot of exposure to that and I met a lot of really, really talented people that I recruited into these roles. One of my clients was very quick, it was a group of four companies privately owned by two brothers. They're just exploding with growth. They had patents, they had new inventions, they did all kinds of stuff. I had a software product they started. And I had placed so many people there that they were starting to look at the numbers and they're like, we can't, he's doing a great job but we can't keep using him because this is starting to cost a lot of money.
And so they offered me a job. I kind of said no. They offered me a job again, director of town acquisition there. I said no. And I really liked the leadership team there. It was just different. I mean, it was, it felt, it felt very much like day one being part of something big, but it was already successful. So I went and worked there and that's where I got exposure to, I'll say everything. They had a SaaS company at software as a service. They had a construction company. They had a steel manufacturing plant. They had patents for that. They recreated.
Matthew (07:44.842)
the new invention for highway construction, the replacement for steel. So we had, I mean, I was hiring software developers, salespeople, machinists, everything you can imagine. And I mean, we were hiring like a ton of people, like hiring lots of people every week. And I was doing most of it myself. So reading all these resumes, interviewing, you know, five people a day, sometimes 10 people a day on the phone or in person. It was insane. So we grew those businesses and then the company was acquired. And I had...
I didn't have a game plan. I had no idea it was coming. And unfortunately, I'm not one of those people who was part of that acquisition, so I didn't get a penny out of that. So retirement was not an option. So I was thinking about all that I learned during that time and how to share that with job seekers. And I was working on different ways to do that. And I knew what podcasts were, because I listened to one or two. But I kind of made fun of the, oh, everybody has a podcast thing, right? And I didn't think anyone would want to hear what I had to say.
So I happened to have a microphone. I rambled for 20 minutes and put out my first episode and kind of enjoyed it, did another one. And within a month I started actually, I gained listeners and I didn't have any kind of background, any kind of following, anything like that. I'm not the most interesting person. But people liked what I had to say because I think I was really kind of putting out, putting my heart into it with a good intention to actually help people, just sharing my knowledge for free.
but it's also humanizing it. And I think for a lot of people, it's hard to find a recruiter to sit down with. If you know an executive recruiter, maybe you're not looking to make a change in your career. So you're not gonna ask them questions, but people feel a little embarrassed, you know, to ask insight, just like people don't wanna ask a doctor. Like, you know, they have a cousin who's a doctor. They don't wanna say, hey, look at this thing on my foot. So I think I kind of opened this portal to at least my experience and what I saw. And that was about three years ago, I think. And...
Erin Diehl (09:13.143)
Yeah.
Matthew (09:41.474)
The audience has just grown. So, you know, my goal, I think, it turns out my calling is sharing this knowledge from my side of the table, from the mistakes I've seen and a lot of interesting ways to do things right.
Erin Diehl (09:54.663)
Love it. Okay. And I love, I love the different roads that led you here because there were several and you took, you said no at the right times and then you, you took the path when it opened up right for you and it's brought you to a really cool place and you have such a great audience and you give such great insight and such great tips. I know that so many people listening, you have to go and listen to a show, especially if you're searching for a new role because I was a recruiter too.
Back in the day, I did business development at a recruiting firm. You know this, Matthew. And that's a hard job. And it is hard to talk to a recruiter because recruiters are so busy trying to fill roles. Like your time is literally money. So to get this experience, these insider tips for free is so cool. And I think I'm so grateful you have this for people. Let me ask you this. In your personal experience.
What sets somebody like a candidate looking for a job from somebody who wants a job? What sets them apart from somebody who's looking from somebody that is passionate about what they do? Because I know when I was a recruiter, this is horrible to say, but my old boss would say there's a walking invoice because that person was
You just know when you meet that person that they're the right fit for that job. What is the difference between just a job seeker and a person who is deeply passionate about their career path?
Matthew (11:33.31)
Oh my gosh, you hit the nail on the head. And so I rewind to when I was an executive recruiter, I'd go out and try and find that person, right? That walking invoice. That's really hard to do. But then when I was director of town acquisition at the company I mentioned, and then I was actually director of town acquisition at another startup after that, every once in a while you interview someone, especially for in-person interviews. You're sitting at the table, sometimes company owners there with you, sometimes the...
Erin Diehl (11:40.8)
Yeah.
Matthew (12:01.006)
Maybe the chief technology officer is in there with you, you know, you're a couple interviews in. And I've interviewed a lot of people, thousands and thousands of people, and there's this small group that stood out. And I'll answer your question, then I'll dig into this. The people who stand out, the passionate people, they wanna solve a problem. So during their interviews, you know, the owners of the company and I, you know, it just happened over and over, we'd glance at each other.
Erin Diehl (12:20.48)
Yeah.
Matthew (12:27.83)
And we'd try and figure out how to hire these people, how to get them on board. And we shifted. We're the ones that got nervous and we'd start selling them the role instead of vetting them, instead of saying, hey, you've got a capital T here on your resume. It's just not that we did that, but instead of kind of digging in and asking hard questions, we'd start saying, hey, we've got this and this. The top candidates, they weren't the best looking, like the most successful job seekers,
Erin Diehl (12:31.936)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (12:38.005)
Yeah.
Matthew (12:57.91)
They spoke and said, they probably said it plenty. They didn't even have the best answers to interview questions. What they held and verbalized was a solution to our problem. And that's why I'm so glad you asked that question earlier. They wanted to solve something. They know what we needed to do. And from their experience and expertise, they just casually shared how to get the best outcome. So if it was a salesperson,
Erin Diehl (13:15.264)
Yeah.
Matthew (13:26.774)
They know how to connect our product to customers. A lot of times they'd say, you know, I've seen a lot of companies go this path and that never works. What I found and what I did in my last role or with my last team is we actually set up this and we'd say, oh, what you just said doesn't work and that's what we've been doing and it hasn't been working. Like, you know how to fix this. Can you start today? Can you start right now? If it was a marketing person, maybe they'd explain how they'd set up the right campaign with the right strategy for the best ROI.
And you don't have to be a seasoned expert to do this. You have to care. And that's sometimes that's the hard part and you're gonna have to care over and over. So when you ask that about people who are passionate, I think the passion that come through for employers is solving the problem. You can be passionate about a certain side of town that you wanna work in. You wanna be passionate about how cool a brand is that you like the vibes. That doesn't really help the employer.
Erin Diehl (14:00.706)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (14:15.029)
Yes.
Matthew (14:26.742)
But if you invest the time to understand the role and the why, why are they hiring? Not because someone left, like bigger picture than that. What's the purpose of this role? Not the day to day, not the computer programs. Why does a role exist to bring in revenue, to reduce errors, to delight customers? And then you need to understand how to, what the solution is, what your solution is.
Erin Diehl (14:35.509)
Yeah.
Matthew (14:54.35)
It might take hours to research it, to build a plan. But imagine a job candidate comes into a job interview and they can say, I'm passionate about this. Everyone's passionate, right? I'm excited, I'm passionate. But if they come, maybe they say they're passionate, but instead of just saying that, they come to an interview with a two page outline on what they would do to make this department successful through their role, a game plan. The candidate goes to the top of the list. Even if you don't have the best skills, you have a plan.
Erin Diehl (15:15.831)
I mean, game changer, game changer. Yeah, yeah.
Matthew (15:23.602)
Skills are great, but plans get things done. And here's the best part. If you're listening and you're having trouble even getting a job, and again, you have to care, and this is hard work. You have to want to provide your skills. You have to help solve a company's problem. And I get it, making money is the big part. We have bills to pay, right? We have mortgages or car payments or whatever. But...
Erin Diehl (15:25.095)
Oh, love it.
Matthew (15:49.434)
A lot of people are probably listening and they're saying, I am passionate, I am that person, I want to solve a problem. I can't even get the interview to share how I'll help. Probably the best part here is in getting the interview is the hard part. So instead of writing a cover letter or no cover letter, instead of writing a cover letter about you, I want to work here, I love what you're doing, I want to relocate to your city, my friend works here in the past.
I did this and this and this and this and this and this and this and this. Then I helped these people. Then I did this and this and this. Instead of all that, which is about 90% of cover letters, maybe 95, just say this, put this in your cover letter.
Your company is looking to improve its marketing campaigns as a marketing manager that has led campaigns with a 42% ROI in eight months. I understand your challenge. Here are three action items I put together for this role to help improve outcomes and retain clients while staying under budget bullet point one, bullet point two, bullet point three, make them short a sentence. Maybe there's more to this plan that I've gathered into a brief for you. I look forward to meeting and sharing it.
Erin Diehl (17:02.803)
Y'all better hit pause rewind and write that down. That was amazing.
Matthew (17:09.59)
So that might not, that's not gonna guarantee you get hired. That cover letter sadly might not even be read. But you just took, if that's seen, if they look at the people that applied, you just took your candidacy into the stratosphere. Not every company will like your plan, but they will like that you have a plan. You are a solution. You are a solution with a solution. You're the solution.
Erin Diehl (17:26.039)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Totally.
Matthew (17:36.574)
You're good, but you also have the solution with you, if that makes sense. You're two things at once, you're the person they need, which they need a person, but you also have a solution. So it's like, if you're locked out of your car, you need someone to come unlock, you need the tow person, right, to come unlock it. They're your solution, but they need the tools to do it. You have both.
Erin Diehl (17:44.467)
Oh, I love it. I love it so much.
Erin Diehl (17:52.514)
Yeah.
Totally. They can't show up without tools. Now, this, okay, first of all, you're blowing my mind here because I feel like I needed this today. If you're listening and maybe you're not job seeking, maybe you're in sales, maybe you are a people leader of a sales team, what a great way to rewrite your sales pitches. Make it about them. What about, this goes just for literally anything. I think you can use this approach for job seeking.
You can use it for sales, you can use it in marketing, you can use it with your partner, with your friends. Anything that you can do to showcase that you understand people's problems and you can be the solution is automatically bumping you up in terms of candidate, in terms of partner, in terms of vendor, in terms of whatever it is. You're automatically...
going to be seen as a problem solver and as a solution, which I think is what we're all really looking for, people to solve our problems.
Matthew (19:04.014)
Here's the challenging part, and this is how it applies to so many things in life. To do this, you have to put yourself in their shoes and understand their problem from their perspective. Not from your perspective, not from, oh, I see that people are drinking less Pepsi. Well, as a consumer, here's how I think they should pitch me. That's one way to look at it, but you have to look at it from their perspective. What are their quarterly reports? What have they said?
Erin Diehl (19:16.64)
Yes.
Matthew (19:32.962)
What are their challenges? What ingredients don't they have access to? What is there a shortage of aluminum for their cans? What is happening in their world? And then how do you solve that instead of what's happening in your world, which is wanting a job, wanting to relocate, wanting to live in Miami or Los Angeles. Those are all you things, those aren't their problem. They didn't wake up thinking about that. But when you do that for a client, for a spouse,
Erin Diehl (19:38.102)
Yeah!
Erin Diehl (19:48.747)
Yes.
Erin Diehl (19:55.22)
Totally.
Matthew (19:58.754)
for your local HOA or city council or whatever you're part of, when you put yourself in their shoes and see the problem from their perspective, not only do you, I think, gain some empathy for it, which we should all have, you also can understand how you can work together with that organization or person and what you can bring to the table.
Erin Diehl (20:19.243)
Oh my God. Matthew, it's like I wrote a whole book on this. Okay, like literally this is exactly what I was talking about and I see you. It's seeing the person as the human being. And when you can, as the job seeker, see the person that you're hiring, the job that you're hiring for as an opportunity to be empathetic and help the person with their problems, you're gonna land that role in no time. I really think this is...
the answer that a lot of people have been looking for and it's just a quick mindset shift. What do you see, and not to go negative, but I wanna talk about this. What are some of the things that you see in job interviews that are super challenging, that people should avoid doing?
Matthew (21:06.774)
That's a big one is mindset. And I think this is getting worse. A lot of job seekers have had bad experiences or heard horror stories. So they think the recruiter is out to get them. Now there's a lot of mistakes you can make during your interview. I talk about a lot of them on the podcast, but for the most part, a lot of those things that job seekers think are killing them, aren't killing them. I've said this before. You can say um 100 times during your job interview. Yeah, maybe it's a little annoying,
Erin Diehl (21:08.887)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (21:19.682)
Yeah.
Matthew (21:36.382)
If you have a great skill set and you align with their budget, they're not looking for someone who doesn't say um. That's not on the job description. You must not, you must be an expert in Microsoft Excel and never say um. So all these little things that people, I think, get hung up on, like oh, this is killing me, I'm nervous, I sweat, I say um. A decent recruiter, they're human, they know that you're nervous, they don't care that you say um.
The recruiter is going to kind of dig deep and want to, you know, you don't want to mess up. You don't want to start cursing or, you know, whatever. But don't start the interview with a combative mindset that you are going head to head. That recruiter that you speak with might also end up being your best friend. And by that I mean offering you the job. And a lot of people listening have, I'm sure worked as recruiters or in human resources. And they know like, you don't.
Erin Diehl (22:16.385)
Yeah!
Erin Diehl (22:21.539)
Totally.
Matthew (22:30.262)
You don't walk into the interview room or pick up the phone and think, oh, I'm gonna get this person. So instead of a combative mindset, think of it as meeting up with a friend, someone that likes you, think casual yet professional. You can't force them to like you, so just be friendly at yourself. They're motivated to hire. They want to call someone or sit down with someone who's the right person for the job. So don't think that they're out to get you. They...
Erin Diehl (22:35.052)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (22:40.223)
Yes.
Matthew (22:57.63)
a good recruiter is working to figure out how you're the right fit. Now there's a lot of things you can do to help them. Excuse me, there's a lot of things you can do to help them like being a solution that I spoke about. But that mindset of feeling like you're kind of going in the ring with them and you're really nervous and you think they're out to get you, I think that hurts job seekers a lot more than saying um too many times or being a little bit awkward or whatever else. Those are little things that.
Erin Diehl (23:00.887)
That's it.
Matthew (23:25.206)
We're all just humans and we do those things, whether we're in the office with our coworkers and we're a little awkward, we spill coffee on ourselves, whatever. Those are small things that I think are mostly ignored or not even noticed. It's going in ready to fight or be defensive that I think hurts a lot more people.
Erin Diehl (23:37.005)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (23:42.283)
Yeah, it's like the energy, right? You can feel somebody's energy. And I think the mindset, which you meant your first solution mindset is huge. Because if you go in even from like a place of desperation, I feel like people can feel that. And I was, as a recruiter, I had many different experiences, but it was always the people who understood the assignment.
knew what the solution was and also had a readiness to learn even if they didn't know the skill set, but they had this positive outlook and not saying this has to be toxic positivity, right? Like, but a genuine desire. I always was like, that is the person for this job. And I think what you're saying is even stronger than that. The mindset just holistically is got to be
strategies that you would give some of your candidates to use to get themselves in a positive mindset before they go in.
Matthew (24:45.93)
just shifting your thinking to a conversation using the word conversation. Instead of I have an interview tomorrow, it's I'm going to, I'm going to talk to Erin at improve it tomorrow. Erin is taking time out of her busy day to talk to me. And so I'm going to assume that she likes what she saw on my resume, on my cover letter.
Erin Diehl (24:53.2)
Oh.
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (25:05.716)
Yeah.
Matthew (25:07.914)
And those aren't things that you, you're not lying to yourself there. That's the truth. Recruiters are super busy. They get 100, 500, 1000 applications. And they choose, so when you have an interview, they chose to talk to you. There's something about you they like. So they're starting off liking you. I would encourage you to start off making the choice to start off liking them. And when both parties start the video call, when both screens go live and you emit, like you said, you use the perfect work, when you emit that energy of liking them. Like, hey.
Erin Diehl (25:19.243)
Yeah.
Matthew (25:38.754)
How's it going? It's really good to see you. I've been looking forward to this all day. Instead of, oh, hey, this is Matthew. Can you see me okay? You know, and I get that you're nervous. I get that you've been hurt before from interviews, from letdowns. Maybe they acted like they liked you and then they ghosted you. And that adds up. I think one of the hardest things of job seeking is letting those things go and persevering. It's not.
Erin Diehl (25:39.637)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (25:46.261)
Yes.
Erin Diehl (26:04.565)
Yeah.
Matthew (26:05.798)
Applying is super hard. It's super time-consuming. The cover letters are hard. The interviews are hard One of the hardest parts is making yourself finding a way To let things go and to start fresh so this recruiter this next interview this next recruiter you two probably 99 chance You don't have a background. They didn't ghost you someone else might have they didn't so give them that fair shot Give them your friendly energy your smile I think that's one way
Erin Diehl (26:23.233)
Yeah.
Matthew (26:33.27)
to help shift your mindset a little bit. I know it kind of mirrors what I said earlier, but you have to give yourself permission to be their friend and not something else.
Erin Diehl (26:41.975)
Totally.
Okay, and I love this so much. Behind me, Matthew, is a vision board. Okay, and behind on this vision board is the beautiful, the one and only, my North Star, Oprah Winfrey. Okay, and I'm gonna, this is going somewhere, I promise. When I went to see the Oprah show before the Oprah show was cancelled, I realized that I was witnessing her third show that day, and she records multiple shows in a day.
She had already had three audiences. She's probably already taped like five shows that week. And she set this intention to come out to the audience, give us her full attention because she knows we've come from all over, we've planned this, this has been such an exciting thing for us. And she gave us her energy. And I know this is Oprah Winfrey and I'm talking about job seeking, but if you think about it.
these recruiters as the candidate, they have been in multiple conversations, but they're still there giving you their energy and you've probably at this point gone through multiple interviews as a candidate and you're probably burned out or you're getting to a place of burnout. If you can think in that moment, I get to talk to this person, I feel like that mindset shift is what you're talking about. Like I don't have to, I get to.
Matthew (28:08.607)
I love that.
Erin Diehl (28:09.451)
that changes everything. And truthfully, I'ma be honest with you, today I told you this Matthew before we hit record, listen, you girls having a day. I was just having one of those mornings like life is overwhelming, blah, I was woe is me. And then I thought to myself, Matthew's got great energy. I get to talk to Matthew today. And that changed my vibe. And already after talking to you, I'm feeling better. So that mindset shift, cheers. Cheers Fred.
Matthew (28:38.446)
Cheers.
Erin Diehl (28:39.643)
It can change the game for real. Okay, well, I wanna jump to one more tool and then I have a fun little thing I wanna do, networking. So you're talking about landing the interview. That is the hardest part. Once you, they always say I'm Peloton, Jess Sims always says this. She's one of my favorite instructors. She's like, the hardest part is check, done, you're here. Let's go, right? So the hardest part is getting the interview.
What is your take on networking? How do you think that plays into getting interviews and Would you say it's one of the most effective tools?
Matthew (29:20.646)
So I'm probably a little bit different of a networker. So my very first job out of college, I sold newspaper ads for our local business journal, okay, back when it was print, maybe it still is. And I went to every networking event, I swear to God, every networking event in the world with that job. My camera's being a little goofy, can you still see me? Okay, cut that part, sorry, it was blinking at me.
Erin Diehl (29:41.037)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (29:46.127)
I can see ya, I can see you. That's okay.
Matthew (29:50.826)
I went to every networking job in the, or every networking gig in the world with that job. And so I saw basically networking, the worst and the best. The joke about networking is it's a bunch of salespeople all giving each other business cards, right? Cause you're all there to try and sell. So I learned from that, what I took from that, and maybe this is just my personality, but I try and, I don't have like a theme for this. I try and kind of unnetwork. So I don't pitch.
Erin Diehl (30:05.172)
Yeah.
Matthew (30:19.53)
when I meet people, whether I'm selling or not. Just try and find people that you connect with well, and hopefully that person and you can have great parallel careers together. And what I found from that is when I still go to events, I'm part of a, I shouldn't have told you this, Aaron, I am part of a different breakfast club.
Erin Diehl (30:39.179)
That is rude! I am not- okay. We have our own. We have our own. Cheers. We'll do one more. Cheers. Okay. Cheers. Mm-hmm.
Matthew (30:44.462)
Cheers. The second best breakfast club I go to in person. So, don't be business card first. Don't be job seeker first. Meet the right people, sit at the table, just talk to people, tell them about your skills, ask them questions, and we could probably do a whole podcast about this, but be a good friendly person. Try and think of it as like you're in your neighborhood, right? You are not gonna go sell all your neighbors, give them your business card, say,
Erin Diehl (31:03.018)
Yes.
Erin Diehl (31:09.75)
Yes.
Matthew (31:14.486)
a new roof, call me, call me, call me. Just wanna go talk to them, see what they're about, ask them what they're about, see if you wanna hang out again, kinda is the idea with your neighbors. So that's how I view networking, and I think that's helped me because it's long term, I've made a lot of great long term connections, and through that, some of those people out now, like we talk, and it's like, hey, how's stuff going with your business? And I'm like, I'm trying to connect with this type of organization, or this type of thing, and they're like, oh, I know, like, you know, my...
Erin Diehl (31:16.172)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (31:20.927)
Yes.
Matthew (31:43.602)
neighbor or someone I worked with for 10 years is the leader of the national version of that. You should call them. And so what I found is if people see you're working hard, you do network. To me, networking is more getting out, getting out of the house, joining a club, joining a knitting club or a rowing club or a biking club. Those people all, they will be able to help you, but when you go you first, I think it really hurts. So I'm probably not the best person to pitch this, but that's what's worked for me.
Erin Diehl (31:57.1)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (32:10.391)
to.
Matthew (32:13.658)
I've never gone edit with this, how do I make this work for me in the next week or month? For a job seeker, if you go that direction, those people are all gonna wanna talk to you again because they see that you're interested in what they do and you just enjoyed speaking with them without approaching it to get something out of it. So you'll be able to say, hey, I know that maybe you were the president of this company and then you were the chairman of the board, I know you're kind of removed now, but I know you know the whole board now or.
Erin Diehl (32:32.963)
totally.
Matthew (32:42.974)
You know, the leader of the marketing department. I'd really like to work there. Do you think you could set up just like a breakfast call so I can just kind of ask this person what it looks like to, you know, as a recent college grad or whatever to, like what they look for and speak with them from there. So that's one way to kind of do it, right? Is use the people who like you, who see you're working hard to use those relationships and just ask them, hey, can you make an introduction? That's worked well for me.
Erin Diehl (33:08.843)
Yes.
Matthew (33:11.042)
The tip I have for listeners is the people that have helped me with these things that have made introductions, what I always do is follow up with them and let them know how it went. And I've received a huge amount of feedback on that. So I just say, hey, Aaron, I met up with A. Aaron the other day and we talked about this and this and I learned a bunch from their perspective on marketing, whatever.
Erin Diehl (33:22.137)
Oh, that's huge.
Erin Diehl (33:39.519)
Yeah. Love it.
Matthew (33:39.83)
Thank you so much for the connection. Just that simple, just a quick email. You can do a handwritten note, we won't go into that, but just let them know how it went. Let them know that you did your part. They made the introduction, they took a risk. Let them know you showed up, you made impression, you had a great time. So for a job seeker, you can kind of look at all that, but maybe you're not all that. Networked, maybe you're in a new town, maybe you don't know anybody. The thing to do there is you can look up a company, figure out who works there, sometimes from the website. LinkedIn's the easiest way.
Erin Diehl (33:50.988)
Yes.
Yes.
Matthew (34:10.21)
For big companies, it gets really hard. So my advice would be start small. So find, it's gonna be hard to get ahold of someone at Pepsi or at least find the exact right person at Pepsi, but maybe there's a local Pepsi distributor in your town. Message the CEO there and say, hey, like I'm really interested in the beverage industry, hospitality industry, whatever.
Erin Diehl (34:16.555)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (34:26.754)
Yeah.
Matthew (34:36.226)
Do you mind if I just like stop by your office with a cup of coffee or even meet on a video call? Can I ask you these questions as I'm trying to get direction to move into this field? Or you can even say, I'm trying to move into this field. I just wanna get your perspective on my resume or like how I might pitch myself, whatever it is. So you can find, like you have to find the companies, right? Whether it's you do local beverage distributors, local Coca-Cola distributors in...
Austin, Texas, so you can really narrow it down to things like that. I think that's the best way to get started. Otherwise, you try and get ahold of someone at Apple. They have a billion employees. How do you find the right one? So to me, it starts small, really narrowed down, and then that person at the Pepsi beverage distributor might say, hey, I have a relationship with the regional rep or the regional buyer for Pepsi. Maybe you should talk to them.
Erin Diehl (35:14.018)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Matthew (35:33.238)
So that's, to me, start, and I don't mean this in a demeaning way, but start at the bottom of the ladder. Don't try and jump up to the very top rung. Start down low, talk to people local, talk to people you can get in touch with. I like big picture thinking I'm kind of a shoot for the moon, shoot for the stars kind of person, but I found, and I don't mean to discourage people, you're probably going to spend a lot of time trying to reach people who have been designed to be unreachable because of corporate structure.
Erin Diehl (35:33.603)
That's it.
Erin Diehl (35:37.183)
love it. Yes.
Erin Diehl (36:00.781)
Yeah.
Matthew (36:02.442)
LinkedIn messages do go through. If you find the right person at Apple, send them a message. But in the meantime, start, so first step is when you meet with people in person, whether it's your bicycle club, coffee shop, whatever, don't be focused on you and like your short-term goals first. Just try and make a connection. If they like you, the only way they're gonna like you is if you actually talk to them, you ask them questions and then follow up on that, whether it's a week later or a year later. The other side is with networking, start small.
Erin Diehl (36:06.251)
Yeah.
Matthew (36:31.754)
and be curious, don't approach it as, hey, I need you to hook me up with the, this is what I've seen a lot of, I need you to hook me up with the hiring director, the director of talent acquisition at Apple. Like, hey man, can you do that? That's prob, like you're, if people even do that for you, they're probably gonna be like, hey, I got this resume from someone they wanted me to forward it to you. Right, like you're probably not gonna get a strong recommendation, anything like that. If you come in and say, hey, what are the, like what are the problems in this industry? I think I have some.
Erin Diehl (36:33.249)
Yeah.
Matthew (37:00.838)
Experience from my last role that can help this I I've seen some things and I or I see the growth in this industry and I think this skill I have can help Improve it whatever that is and then ask questions. I think that's a better way to network
Erin Diehl (37:12.103)
Yeah, pun intended, and prove it. Yes, well, and I love that you're positioning yourself as not a vitamin, right, as a painkiller, and it's like you have to kill that pain, and if you, and I also love what you're saying too, is be curious and also give more than you're taking, especially in that first meeting, I think is huge. Like, just being curious and open to what that person needs.
following up and giving to them will give more to you in the long run. Even though you want to take in that moment, giving will give more in the long run.
Matthew (37:53.042)
My ramble there was summarized so well with what you said. I wish that, like, I wish I could just say ramble to you and then you could summarize it in like three words. That is the most amazing skill. How do you do that?
Erin Diehl (38:02.836)
Yes.
Well, thank you. I mean, you know, it's years of improv training, Matthew. No, I don't know what it is. That's what I heard you say. And I think it's so cool. And I think you did not ramble. It was all great information. You gave such great insight tips. I think people literally gained probably something from you saying that. And if I just even reinforced it, they're gonna move it forward. And I think for you.
you're giving to so many people in the work that you're doing. Like it has to come back tenfold. I think that's just like the law of attraction too. Like you give and then you receive. And I think what you're doing right now, your podcast is doing that. And it's coming back to you tenfold. And so many people can learn from that. It's just so cool. You're welcome. Okay. I don't want this to end because our breakfast clubs are fun, but I have a lightning round session for you and I'm very excited about it because...
I'm going to put a minute on the clock. Okay. On my watch. Are you nervous right now? Don't be nervous. No, don't sweat. This is there's no sweat here. Okay. I'm going to put a minute on the clock and I want you if you can in one word answers. They can be more than one word, but I'm going to interview in under one minute and I want you to give me as many answers as you can to these one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, seven questions. Are you ready?
Matthew (39:01.97)
Okay? I'm super nervous. Don't ask me something hard.
Matthew (39:24.63)
So, wait, I'm sorry. I'm giving you, am I giving you one word answers?
Erin Diehl (39:30.419)
You can, or just short answers, as short answers as you can. If, cause they're probably, maybe it's a title of something and it has more than one word, that's okay. Here we go. This is your rapid fire round, Matthew. Here we go. Okay, best leadership book.
Matthew (39:32.066)
Short answer, okay, okay.
Matthew (39:45.79)
Endurance. It's a book about Ernest Shackleton.
Erin Diehl (39:47.383)
Best TV, okay, endurance. Best TV show that showcases leadership.
Matthew (40:02.422)
I'm gonna say Sopranos. It's not good leadership, but leadership.
Erin Diehl (40:05.091)
Oh yes, favorite song to pump you up before an interview.
Matthew (40:10.762)
Painkiller by Judas Priest.
Erin Diehl (40:14.859)
Song that makes you cry.
Matthew (40:23.47)
I can't remember the name. I'm too busy crying so I can't see the screen. I can't see the name of the song.
Erin Diehl (40:25.171)
Okay, all right, that's okay, we'll pass. Okay, I know, tears are falling, tears are falling. Favorite interview outfit.
Matthew (40:32.31)
What I'm wearing right now. I like a Moreno wool sweater with a blazer over it. It's breathable. Looks good.
Erin Diehl (40:37.947)
Okay, breathe the pull functional. Okay, dream job of all time.
Matthew (40:43.187)
movie director.
Erin Diehl (40:44.807)
Oh, and then best interview you've ever had. Woo, you did it. It was like 102, crushed it. Okay, this is the final question because we always say on the show, improve it. It is that thing that you are meant here to do. It's the reason that you exist. It is your purpose. What is Matthew's it?
Matthew (40:47.757)
right now.
Matthew (41:10.046)
I'm super sorry. I'm fumbling this. Can we cut?
Erin Diehl (41:14.091)
Yep.
Matthew (41:16.23)
I am not super good at this. Can you clarify, like, what's my, is it something that I think listeners should improve or something to improve about myself?
Erin Diehl (41:21.599)
No, you, like why are you put on earth? What is your purpose?
Matthew (41:25.572)
I see, okay, I'm sorry. Thank you for helping me out there.
Erin Diehl (41:27.691)
That's okay. Okay. So what is your it? What is your purpose or that thing that you bring to the world?
Matthew (41:35.758)
I have realized in the last probably six months to a year of doing this podcast that I think part of my calling is helping great people who are, have great skills, convey that to employers. Their job, their expertise is not job interviews and it shouldn't be. Their expertise is
being really smart at all the things I wish I was smart at. Amazing architect, an amazing actuary, amazing marketer, amazing machinist, amazing at social media. That's your expertise. My expertise is helping you connect the dots between what you're really good at and what the employer needs, helping you do that for a recruiter or whoever you're talking to. And what I've found is like it or not, not by choice, not by design. I think this has been my calling to help people do that through the show. And I really push myself to
be a little bit better at that and help listeners a little bit more every week.
Erin Diehl (42:38.487)
People are clapping in their cars, in their showers, where they're on their walks, wherever they're listening to this. Okay, well, I know everyone is gonna wanna get in touch with you, this was amazing advice. You helped us with our solutions, okay, to all of these problems. Where can people find you?
Matthew (42:57.186)
The easiest way is to go to JobI I'm not good on social media. I post a show to Instagram and LinkedIn, all those places. I'll be honest, if you message me there, I won't see it for a week or two. I'm just really bad. I'm stuck in 2000 whenever. So go to JobI oh, sorry.
Erin Diehl (43:16.955)
No, you're doing amazing, actually. Your brain is probably thanking you. So you're not stuck in 2000. Your brain is actually in the right place.
Matthew (43:27.458)
So if you go to jobi you can message me directly. There's just a contact form there. I get those emails, I respond to them. Then there's a voicemail bag on there. So if you go to the voicemail bag, you can record yourself. If you specifically have a interview question, record it there. I'll respond to it, I'll put it on air. I cut out personal information. It's a really fun way for me to connect with you, the audience, things like that. But if you wanna know more, message me on, or send me a message to jobi It has my email, it has the little form.
I'm a little weird, I just am not on LinkedIn or like messaging on Instagram or Facebook. That all confuses me. So I'm an email person, but I'm like a inbox zero person. So if you can contact me with me, any questions you have about your interview, career, guidance, I really enjoy helping. And I think that I can give you a different perspective. And also if you go to jobi you'll see the podcast, you'll see some interview videos up there.
But you can find it. You'll see links to Apple, Spotify, and the 2,000 other podcast players out there. So that's a way to hear great guests like Erin, who's coming up soon, hear her insight. And I ask her some questions and I think I probably got some things out of Erin that you don't get from her podcast because I'm asking things from my perspective and kind of putting her on the spot, which I found is a great way to just like today. I hope I was helpful.
Um, when that adrenaline spikes a little bit and you have the nerves, hopefully that helps kind of get the creative juices flowing so you can hear Aaron soon. I have other guests and once we have a solo episode where I discuss some type of job interview scenario. I just did one on the weaknesses question. I have an episode where I talk about ways to be a solution instead of a job applicant, and I'm just going a little bit deeper every week.
Erin Diehl (44:53.379)
So helpful.
Erin Diehl (45:17.395)
Love it. All right, we're going to link all of that in the show notes. Email Matthew. I'm actually really proud of you for not being a person that goes all over the place because it could really stress you out. That was part of my problem this morning. Actually, if I'm being honest, you touch on the nose on the nose, but Matthew you have truly given so much. Thank you. You really are a helper and a healer in so many ways and different ways. Use that word for you because.
You are helping people probably heal past traumas of job interviews gone wrong. And hopefully in listening today, everyone goes and listens to his show, checks out his website, sends him an email. Matthew, you are awesome. Thank you for being here.
Matthew (46:03.298)
Thank you so much, Erin, for having me. Can I just say, with what I do, so much of my life is planned, and I work so hard to script out my episodes, write emails, send pitches. I so badly want to do one of your improv classes because from my experience, it's been a long time since I've done anything like that. It is so good to get yourself out of the box, to get that fear, for me, even just talking to you today, to get that fear, the adrenaline.
It helps reset things in my mind. I think it does for your listeners too. So I'm sure a lot of your listeners feel the same way, but if there's ever a chance I can join one of your improv classes. Unfortunately, I'm a company of one, so us talking right here, this is the improv class. And I think listeners feel the same way. We all want to do one of these classes. Get out of the box. And you just shake off that work weight that I think builds up doing the same thing every day.
Erin Diehl (46:34.562)
Yeah!
Erin Diehl (46:46.166)
Listen.
Erin Diehl (47:02.215)
I did not set you up for this. I literally, everyone did not ask Matthew to ask me this, but I have two coming up, public ones. I do. So April 9th, it is going to be from one to 2 p.m. Eastern. And then on April 17th, it'll be the same one from 11 to noon Eastern time as well. And those are what we're calling virtual book clubs. So it's actually, I use the improv activities in the book.
Matthew (47:07.471)
What you do when are they?
Erin Diehl (47:29.931)
to do a book club and we're using improv and you're gonna go in and out of breakout rooms with a partner, but it's the activities pulled from the book and you will be experiencing improv in real time, in real life virtually. So I'll send you the links, you gotta come. It will be so fun if you can make one, they'll both be the same. So just pick one or you can come to both. But we'd love to have you, that'd be awesome.
Matthew (47:50.978)
I'm gonna do it, I love it. It's like with improv, it's like, what's your name? And I'm like, what do you mean? What'd I do wrong? It's so good for you.
Erin Diehl (47:57.543)
Yeah, but guess what? You just improvised this entire time. And here's what happens. When people label it, they get nervous. But when you realize that your entire life is improv, you're like, I mean, you literally can't even have a conversation without improvising.
Matthew (48:14.638)
And here's what I'll say for your listeners. When I've, the little bit of improv I did a long time ago, I really enjoyed. It makes everything else in life so much easier when you learn to think quickly on your feet, find the right words, work under pressure. I'm super bad at it, that's why I need to do it. It improves your career. I think it improves your job interview skills immensely. That's why I wanted you on my show so badly. These things help job seekers. It helps in meetings with coworkers when the boss is there and every word feels like it's gonna be wrong.
Erin Diehl (48:36.575)
Yeah.
Matthew (48:44.562)
learning how to hold your tongue, wait and then say the right things, especially quickly. Oh, I think improv is one of the coolest, scariest things ever. So I'm excited. I'll be there the ninth or the, you say 17th.
Erin Diehl (48:58.251)
that it is April the 17th and April 9th, yep. Okay, well we'll see you then. Hopefully everybody else comes too. Thank you Matthews so much for being here.
Matthew (49:09.014)
Thanks again, Aaron.