Episode 239: Is Thursday the New Friday? How to Work Fewer Hours, Make More Money, and Spend Time Doing What You Want with Joe Sanok
What does chaperoning a first-grade planetarium trip have to do with the benefits of a 4-day work week?
More than you think, trust us.
Joe Sanok is the author of Thursday is the New Friday, as well as a speaker, podcaster, and consultant at Practice of the Practice—an organization that helps counselors build their private practices.
Joe joins Erin on the pod today to discuss: his history of looking for work flexibility no matter what role he was in; how he’s negotiated 4-day work weeks throughout his career and the effects it’s had on his life as a whole; and a day-by-day breakdown of how he structures his week as a working parent.
Joe shares the exact script he’s used in the past to ask his boss for a 4-day work week that you can tweak to your liking.
Special sprinkles on top of this episode: how to have the confidence to leave things unfinished + why slowing down is where you need to start
Are people happier with a 4-day work week?
According to Forbes, a U.K. study found after six months of four-day work weeks, 71 percent of workers felt less burnout, company income increased by 1.4 percent on average, and there was a dramatic decrease in employee quitting and a significant reduction in sick days. -Governing Magazine
Who benefits from a 4-day work week?
Nearly anyone who works a full-time job.
Pilot studies in countries including the U.K., Spain, Portugal, and South Africa suggest that shorter workweeks can help employees reduce burnout, manage stress, get more sleep and exercise, spend additional quality time with loved ones, and feel all-around happier and healthier. -TIME Magazine
If you liked this episode, you might also want to try: Episode 216: How Does a Four-Day Work Week Impact Your Team? with Special Guest, Jenna McDonnell
Show Links:
Purchase Erin’s book, I See You! A Leader’s Guide to Energizing Your Team through Radical Empathy
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Did today’s episode resonate with you? Please leave us a 5-star review and drop us any Qs you want answered in upcoming episodes
Connect with Joe Sanok:
Joe’s book, Thursday is the New Friday
Joe’s article in Harvard Business review, “How to Ask Your Boss For a 4-Day Work Week”
Joe’s podcast, The Practice of the Practice
Joe’s website
Joe’s LinkedIn
Connect with Erin Diehl:
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
Episode 239 Transcription
Erin Diehl (00:01.356)
Hey, Joe, welcome to the Improve It podcast. You are not a stranger to me, but you're new here to the Improve It peeps. I'm so excited to have you on the show.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (00:13.08)
Aaron, you were on my show and I'm so glad that we're doing this. It's so awesome to hang out with you again.
Erin Diehl (00:18.508)
I know, it feels like a breath of fresh air. I was talking to you pre -show, having one of those days. And so hopefully, collectively, your nice energy can give our improvement peeps what they need. And through that, I will give myself what I need. And I'm just even going along with this. This show is in May. Our theme for the month is mindfulness. And I'd love to set an intention with you for this show. If there's one word.
that comes to mind that you want to give yourself or the improvement peeps, what would that word be?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (00:55.544)
Slow. I would say slow. I think that when you look at the last hundred years of us being marketed to that there's a pill or a product that's gonna make us feel happier. When you slow down, you realize that a lot of that's not true and that a lot of what we need to actually be happier and to be more content often comes from just slowing down and seeing what's actually in front of us. So I would say slow.
Erin Diehl (00:57.9)
Mmm.
Erin Diehl (01:26.764)
Joe, can I just tell you when you said that my shoulders just dropped and I felt like it was almost like a relief, like a weight off my shoulders because it almost gave me that permission to be slow. So I love that. And I love that intention. I've never heard that intention. I always ask, guess this. That's a new one for me. And I love it. So God, I love it so much. Okay, so let's talk about mindfulness.
What does mindfulness mean to you?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (02:01.656)
What does mindfulness mean to me? You know, um.
I would say mindfulness. There's a lot of ways I could answer this. I think it's an overused word in a lot of ways that has been watered down from a lot of its original.
uses and meditation and in the East and the deeper authenticity in the same way that there's great yoga and there's also yoga that you know, it's just a western workout version of yoga that has missed the whole point of a lot of things. So I think that mindfulness is a nuanced word that often people don't go back to the actual roots of like what that means from a psychological or spiritual standpoint. For me personally without kind of going too far down that road of just like analyzing the word, I think it's just the
to be more present. I don't wanna say be present because we all have times of distraction and being able to recognize those distractions, recognize when we're overthinking the future, overthinking the past, and then just self -correcting and being gentle with ourselves in that and saying, okay,
this situation, this fire is going on in my life or my business right now and sure I could think of the 25 different ways that could go wrong of which maybe none of those may actually actually come to fruition but to allow it to unfold and to you know take that Daoist principle of being like in a river where there's a lot you can't fight that that river is taking you along.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (03:27.32)
and allowing yourself to see what unfolds and then say I'm capable enough when this fire really comes to fruition to handle that fire. And if I'm not, I'll learn how to handle it.
Erin Diehl (03:36.716)
I love it. The future part really got me. I'm a future tripper, you know, like to take those trips down the river catastrophizing what could be and that brought me back. That brought me back to a place. I'm here for this. I'm here for this.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (03:53.976)
Well, and if you think about the brain and the evolutionary perspective, like people that could forecast the future better than others survived.
If it's like, okay, remember last time we came around this corner, like Jimmy was eaten by a tiger? Like we probably should be careful on this corner. Like future forecasting served us to survive. But the amount of times now, if we were like, oh my gosh, like Linda at school pickups is going to be really upset at me if this happens and then this is going to happen. Like we're not going to get killed because of Linda in pickup line, you know? So it doesn't serve us in the same way, but it creates in our brains and in our bodies that same feeling of fight or.
light or freeze. And so a lot of that future forecasting just doesn't serve us in the same way it did when we were in a more primitive type of living.
Erin Diehl (04:40.652)
Makes so much sense. It always comes back to Linda in the pickup line, doesn't it? It's always Linda. It's always Linda. God, Linda, quit making us future trip. But that's such a, it's so, so spot on. And I am so excited to dive deeper into the conversation. We're going to get into your book in just a minute. I want to stay on this topic though of mindfulness because.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (04:45.016)
Linda!
Erin Diehl (05:07.308)
You strike me as a very mindful person and I know that, you know, that word has been sort of overused, but do you have any practices that keep you grounded? Anything that you use in your day to day? Maybe your top one.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (05:18.808)
Yeah, I love Sam Harris's. Oh, my top one. My top one thing that I do regularly is I'm very clear on my schedule. I know when my workday starts and when it ends and I allow myself to leave things unfinished and to be there for my kids to be there for my partner to be there for myself. So I'd say.
boundaries is how I would label that. You know, having very clear boundaries around what I'm doing and when allows me to be fully present in those things and not worry about what's going on at work when I'm with family or what's going on with family when I'm at work or any of those different things.
Erin Diehl (06:01.421)
I freaking love it. I got myself in a little burnout pickle recently. And I, one of my, it was just a little pickle I was in and my last name is Deal. So it could be a Deal pickle. And it was interesting because I had a meditation, talk about mindfulness, that led me to this concept of the three B's, boundaries, breaks and balance. And I had none of those in my life at the time. I was over, I was.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (06:29.112)
Mm -hmm.
Erin Diehl (06:30.188)
Everything was bleeding together. So that is a really great reminder and I love that you implement it and it's something that was top of mind like your top one thing. So that is dope. Okay, let's talk about this book. Thursday is the new Friday. And can you, this is a hard question, no hard questions, just hard answers. How would you or how did you get to this concept? What brought you?
to the four -day work week for yourself.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (07:03.352)
Yeah, so as I wrote the book, I realized, and I've done a bunch of these interviews around the book, I've really realized that...
I've been living this since college. I remember my freshman orientation. You know, I'm an 18 year old, go off to my orientation the summer before I'm headed to school and sit down with the advisors. And you know, there's a small group of like six of us that are kind of doing these small group orientations. And they said, okay, it's time to pick your classes. And I raised my hand, I said, do I have to go to class on Friday? And they said, no, this is college, do whatever you want. So they're all of college except for one semester where there was a required 8 a .m. Friday class. I had the four -day.
Erin Diehl (07:33.42)
Yeah.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (07:40.362)
work week. And then my very first job out of graduate school as a psychologist.
I negotiated the four day work week with that nonprofit and pitched it as you're going to save money on gas money because I was traveling around for a lot of it. You know, it's going to be more efficient. You're going to have your notes and billing in on time. So I had the four day work week then, and there are times when there was jobs that didn't fully support that, but I've always looked for work flexibility in what I do, you know, throughout many of my full -time jobs, I had a side gig counseling practice until I finally left. But for me, it really resonated when I left my full -time job in 2015 and then
I had a side gig counseling practice and jumped into that full time. And that first summer I said, okay, this is entirely my schedule. I'm gonna take, at that time it was Fridays off. I tried Wednesdays for a bit too, just to see which I liked better. And so I tried Fridays for that summer.
I said, you know, if at the end of the summer, like the money's down, I can always go back to working five days a week. So that June, it was my first summer owning just the practice and not doing full time. It was the best month we'd ever had as a practice. July was better than June. August was better than July. And so when I did this experiment by September, it was like, let's just keep doing this. And really it's had different manifestations based on my family, based on travel and different things, but to really average, you know, four days or fewer per week. Um, it's something I realized.
that I've just not wanted to work the average schedule.
Erin Diehl (09:06.54)
I freaking love it. And if you're a long time listener of this show, you will know that we also do four day work weeks and that started in 2023. Also started my practice or my improve it practice in 2015 and went full time that year as well. Very cool. Okay. So a couple of things. Do you cram 40 hours in four days or is it eight hours, four days? How does that work?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (09:34.84)
Okay, so what I do is gonna be different than where most people's next step is, but I will share what I do. So typically on.
A Sunday night, I will look at my calendar for the week just to know what's coming up in case my assistant scheduled something really a big deal on Monday that I need to be aware of. Most Mondays, I'll have a 10 a .m. meeting with my team in South Africa that'll last about an hour, and I might do half an hour of email on Monday. Other than that, I don't really do much work on Mondays.
Things that guide me are I want to walk my daughter who's in elementary school to school every morning. So that starts right before 9 a .m. My sister lives in the neighborhood. So me and my sister and the nieces and my daughter all walk to school together every morning. Every day I want to pick up my daughter just before four o 'clock. So my work day is defined by that. I don't want to be rushing and have a 9 a .m. that I have to run back from the school for. So 930 to 330 is my typical schedule Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday. And so I structured and realized that I really
enjoy podcasting. So I want to land my week around podcasting. So Thursdays tend to be more podcast heavy, tends to be more creative. If I'm going to do videos, I want to be done with the week. So once a month I record with a local videographer to update our courses, our online content.
So we have a four hour contract that I just go there and once a month from 10 a .m. to like 2 30 because we have a break in the middle. I'm doing videos and Thursdays for me feel more creative because I'm done with the week. I'm done with my consulting. I'm done with everything else. So typically Tuesday and Wednesday is more consulting pre consulting clients if people want to potentially work with our team and then also doing things for our membership communities. And then Fridays I don't work unless there's something that really pops up that you know when we have like a summit going on or something like that.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (11:23.642)
that it's just out of the blue. I'll work a couple Fridays and that'll be like an hour if that on a Friday. Most Fridays I'm going to Costco, I'm volunteering at the school, I'm going for walks with friends, I'm cleaning the house so that when the girls get home we're ready for the weekend and not spending the whole weekend doing laundry and dishes but we actually get to go have fun.
Erin Diehl (11:44.236)
I love it. I love it. I love the breakdown. It's always so interesting to me to hear people's schedules. I love it. Thank you for that. Do you ever? Okay, so let's take some steps back because somebody listening here today is thinking this is so amazing, but I work for corporate America. They're never going to go for this. And you own your own practice, but.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (11:52.216)
Mm -hmm.
Erin Diehl (12:10.508)
backing it up, you actually went to your first job and said, here's how I'm going to get the four -day work week. And you gave some solutions on why that would benefit them. How could somebody listening today take this concept and pitch it to their leadership team? I will tell you this, though, before you start. We have done a couple of episodes on the four -day work week with Improve It. And I had a person email me.
and tell me that because of the episode, they pitched themselves a four -day work week. Not the entire company got a four -day work week, but they themselves got one. So I think it's probably harder with really large organizations to make this work individually first versus collectively. So how could somebody go to their leadership team and make this work for themselves?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (12:59.288)
Yeah.
I'll walk through the exact structure that I recommend, but I do want to point to two resources that will help with this. So one is an article I wrote about how to ask your boss for the four -day work week. If you just type in Harvard Business Review in my last name, or we can put it in the show notes, there's a full article walking through exactly what I'm about to share. And then also, actually because this is airing in May, there's a Harvard Business Review book that just released on work -life balance, and I have a chapter in there talking about this stuff as well. So two great resources from Harvard Business Review that will be really helpful. So the big thing to think about is,
Erin Diehl (13:25.1)
Okay, we're gonna link them. We'll link both.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (13:30.026)
I think big picture is we are in a shift from the industrialist mindset. That's what Henry Ford started in 1926, the 40 hour workweek to sell more cars to his own employees.
So he knew if people had a weekend, they'd want to drive places and get out of Detroit. So he did it specifically to sell cars to his own employees less than a hundred years ago. So this is a new concept, the 40 hour work week. So if we just start with, this isn't something that's been around for hundreds and hundreds of years, it's brand new. There's only a couple of generations that have experienced this thing that feels so normal to us. Okay. So this isn't, this isn't something that's been around for a long time. So we just start with that. We want to know, are you working for an industrialist? So industrialists are people that view,
their workers as machines that can get plugged in and they spit out a Model T. So are you working for someone that doesn't understand the nuance of humans? They get mad at you if you have a sick kid and you're not there. They're texting you when you're on vacation.
They expect if you're on vacation on the beach to be emailing back the team and then you're a let down when you get back. That's an industrialist. So first you asking this question is going to reveal are you working for an industrialist who cares mostly about butts in a chair for 40 hours a week or
Are you working for someone that is post -industrialist? That they care about the nuances of people. They don't view the world as this step -by -step prescription, but instead they view it as a menu to try things to see if they work. Are they helping people upgrade into new positions or are people pretty much stuck? So these questions are gonna reveal to you who you're working for. And if you're working for an industrialist,
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (15:03.992)
it's probably not gonna change. You're in a job that is not gonna be flexible and then you have to ask yourself the question, is that what I want out of life? Maybe you do, maybe it works for your family, maybe you're like, this is what it is, I get paid to sit around. Okay.
But if you think you might be working for a post -industrialist or someone that's open to it, what you're going to want to do is to first look at what are the KPIs or the key performance indicators that you are already judged on. So say you're in sales and they want you to be there 40 hours a week. They also have certain sales measures. What on your annual performance review are those numbers that they already give you? Also, the second question is, are there other people that also have that number? So are you on a sales team or are you just an individual? So the conversation you want to have with your boss, because if you're
your boss, you know, is cornered by their boss, and all of a sudden, they approved a four day work week, and they're blindsided, you know, they lose their job or get reprimanded for it, we don't want that. So we're gonna be very transparent with this. So talking with your boss and saying, here are the KPIs that I know that I'm already held to. I think that we can do this or better in a four day work week. I know that we have this team of five people that are doing it. Could we do a three month test of the four day work week? At the end of that?
you know, we look at the numbers here, I'm gonna explain to you exactly how we're gonna walk through it. And then at the end of it, we can say, no, that didn't work or yes, it did.
So then assuming they say yes, let's try that experiment. You get that team together, you're going to have a conversation over two things. One is the KPI that you're already held to. So say it's number of sales per week. And then number two, what is the DNA for us? Now it may not be Fridays off. Maybe Fridays are your most lucrative sales day. Don't take Fridays off then take Wednesdays off, take Mondays off, like whatever day makes sense. Maybe it's that you guys all leave at noon on Wednesday and Thursday, or you come in at noon on Wednesday and Thursday. There's lots of
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (16:53.21)
of ways to configure it. It doesn't have to be Fridays. But what's the DNA of this group that we're all agreeing to for this experiment? That every single week on Monday or whatever your first day is you're going to talk about those two areas.
How are we doing with the KPI we're already judged on? Sales were up by 5 % last week. What happened? Why do we think they were up? How does that compare to this time last year? So maybe sales are always up in May. Well, we don't wanna just say, well, that's cause of the four day work week. Are they down? Well, what are we gonna do to boost those up? And then let's look at that DNA of this team. Did Jim from accounting send an email on Thursday night to everybody and half of us responded. The other came in unprepared on Thursday morning that made half of us look really stupid in that meeting.
not our DNA. You shouldn't have been checking your email or maybe Jim sends an email once a month on Wednesdays and we need to have that in the calendar that we all check our emails at 9 PM on the first Wednesday of the month because Jim sends some really important things. So, we adjust that culture as we go and then we're reporting that out to the boss so that they know. Then once a month, you're gonna then look at all four weeks that you've had those conversations and bring it together and say, what are we seeing in regards to that KPI and in regards to the culture and you're gonna do that three times in a row. At the end, you're then gonna bring together
a full quarter report of the experiment and say overall we were up 10 % with our sales, we were down. You're also going to want to look at the qualitative things. So things like I got to go to my son's baseball game for the first time or I ended up coaching Little League because it starts at 330 on Fridays and I never could do that. This sort of thing makes me want to stay at this company. So what are those qualitative things? And then lastly, what would recommendations be for future experiments with that team and then future experiments if they were to be applied to other teams? What are lessons learned that you think could translate
to other teams or maybe wouldn't. Maybe the accounting team couldn't be as flexible as maybe the sales team. So now you have something in writing that's hopefully this five to ten page report reporting out how the experiment went so that people above your boss can make decisions to hopefully expand to other experiments and then eventually create a culture of the four -day work week.
Erin Diehl (18:55.372)
Yes, Joe. Let me tell you that. Let me tell you something. I was slow. I'm going to bring in your intention. I was slowly following that whole thing. OK, there's the intention slow. And then as as you were talking, I realized this is exactly the framework that my team used. We did a 90 day trial and we used quantitative and qualitative measurements. And it is a beautiful framework and.
It is so smart, so applicable and so tangible. I think anyone listening has the ability, and if you are an industrial job, is that the right terminology, the industrial? Yeah, industrialist? Yeah, if you are, then this probably is not gonna work, as you mentioned, and that might be the answer to your question, and then you could go interview somewhere else and pitch this idea from the get -go.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (19:32.856)
Industrialist, yeah. Your boss is an industrialist.
Erin Diehl (19:48.172)
as Joe did in one of his first jobs. This is awesome and I love the frameworks are something that you have that people can find and we will link to those in the show notes. So everything you just heard, you're gonna have written down if this is something that you wanna implement for yourself. Thank you. That was fabulous. Like that was like chef's kiss, okay? You can't see me doing that on, if you're not watching on camera. So let me ask you this.
Obviously, I'm hearing the qualitative things for you. And I know that my team has seen the qualitative. You know, I have, you're a working parent. Fridays for me, we all have Fridays off. Fridays is the one day my child is still in school that I have to be me. Because Monday through Thursday, I'm leader Erin and mom Erin. And Saturday and Sunday, I'm mom Erin and partner Erin.
And Friday is the day that Erin gets to be Erin alone for like a few hours. And I got to tell you that has changed my mindset. Like it's so much easier to show up on Monday morning having that mentality and that mental break and that clarity. How have you found this, this has worked? Now, how many, how many employees do you have? I know you said you have a team in South Africa, but how big is your team?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (21:10.776)
Yeah, I think we have about 20 now. I'm not really in the hiring anymore, but 20 some.
Erin Diehl (21:13.804)
Okay. Yeah. So how, and everyone has this, right? How?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (21:19.16)
There are some freelancers that we allow them to work whenever they want. And so some of them just are night owls and love doing it. And, you know, so they have different flexibility, but yes, the primary team, we're not responding to emails. We're not digging into things on Fridays or on the weekend. And all of our consulting clients also know that the consultants aren't available on the weekends or on Fridays.
Erin Diehl (21:24.364)
Yep.
Erin Diehl (21:42.156)
I love it. So can I ask you a personal question about this? This is a selfish one peeps. Okay, I need this for me. So we actually have Fridays off, but we check email at 11 and four just to make sure we typically don't have Friday events, but just in the case there's an emergency or a client needs something immediately, we always say we won't respond unless it needs immediate attention. What are your thoughts on that?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (21:46.328)
Yeah, please do.
Erin Diehl (22:10.924)
because that was sort of our contingency plan.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (22:13.816)
I'd say you're training people to email you on Friday. I mean, I would just, if you have an auto responder that kicks in on Thursday night at 6 p .m. and just says, you have the information of Aaron or whoever, if you're that level of client that needs a Friday, then they should have your cell phone. Like my consulting clients, they all have my cell phone. I've twice in...
Erin Diehl (22:17.836)
Mmm.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (22:40.472)
probably five years had someone contact me on a Friday. And one of them was definitely needed. Like the state was coming after their practice inappropriately and she was losing her mind. It's like, yes, we need to talk to your attorney today. Thank you for contacting me. But mostly you're training people to email you still on Fridays. So I would just say we no longer are responding on Fridays. We will add it in. Monday mornings we have two hours set aside for our executive assistant to comb through emails that came through on the weekend.
Every Monday afternoon, we have a meeting and look in a sauna or whatever project management we do. We assign tasks and by Tuesday, your stuff should be sorted out. I mean, are there enough big picture fires that happen on a Friday? And if so, I would say, what are you doing to address your operations so that there aren't that many fires? Like we shouldn't have that many fires on a Friday that people need to attend to. And if we do, then we need to work up the river and say, what's happening where that keeps happening. Like there should be better operations to prevent those things.
Erin Diehl (23:39.02)
Yeah.
You know, that's so, and I will say like I've, I might work an hour on a Friday to catch up on something, but it shouldn't be an email. That should just be a personal.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (23:49.656)
Yeah, I would challenge you to just start by taking one Friday a month completely off. Let your team know, you know, for the next three months, I'm going to fully take the first Friday off and then add in the first and third and see how that goes. If things fall apart, that gives you information on how you can be a better leader. Like, okay, like if you have to contact me on the day that I said I'm taking off, that's an opportunity to say we've got some work to do on our systems.
Erin Diehl (24:08.972)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (24:16.844)
Hmm, Joe, she needed this today and so did my team and they're all like, thank you, Joe. Okay, so let me ask you this. You, okay, I was going, sorry I slipped in a selfish moment there, but I needed it everybody. That was great consulting. Okay. Yeah, that felt good. That's it. I was like dang Joe, this is spot on. Okay, so how about your team?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (24:19.672)
Hehehehehe
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (24:31.608)
No, I do that all the time on my podcast. I'm like, tell me how to do this. Like that's one of the reasons I have a podcast. You get free consulting.
Erin Diehl (24:46.38)
What are some of the things that you've heard about their wellbeing, their employee engagement? How do you feel that this has impacted them?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (24:53.656)
I mean, I think even beyond just the four -day work week, I have a general posture towards flexibility. It goes back to your first question about mindfulness. I mean, it took billions of years for us to get to this point in humanity where you and I can talk across computers to each other, across the nation. That's insane if you really just step back from.
Erin Diehl (25:16.652)
Yeah.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (25:16.824)
what life is. And if we just start with holy crap, we get to be human with all the pain, with all the ridiculousness. Like my life over the last three years has been like a bad Hallmark movie. Like it's been insane and I get a front row seat to it. I don't like it sometimes and I like it sometimes and like just a general posture towards humanity. Like damn we get to be this. So if that's my posture.
Erin Diehl (25:39.564)
Yes.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (25:41.752)
then if someone has a sick kid or like one of my team members, her birthday and the anniversary of her father's death is the same day. It's like, oh, what a heart wrenching day that is supposed to be joyous. Like, yeah, take the week off. Like do what you need to do. Like, so having that general posture.
I think people just realize that they can go after big goals when my executive assistant is like, Hey, I'm doing, I'm chaperoning a school trip, you know, to the planetarium with my first grader. I'm like, awesome. Like, I'm not like, Oh my gosh, you're not going to check my email for four hours. That's ridiculous. No. Like the first thing I ask is how was the planetarium? And she was hilarious about how tough first graders are. She's like, I don't know how these teachers do it. So I think people just get to find themselves again. They get to realize that.
Erin Diehl (26:20.46)
Aw.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (26:30.456)
work is a part of what they do. They get to contribute hopefully in a way that feels meaningful to them. And they also get to shape their careers in a way that they realize what they like and don't like. You know, I want people to...
on the regular, be able to say, what do I like that I'm doing? And I want to keep doing, uh, what do I hate that I'm doing that I want to hand off to someone else on the team or eliminate from the team altogether? And how am I growing into something kind of beyond where I'm at now? Like we're in a phase right now where my executive assistant is going to most likely in the next month be moving over to being the head of people and projects. She's really good with people. She's really good with projects. And so, yeah, to keep her as an executive assistant, she and our chief operations person walk
through this whole thing before they even presented it to me and she's going to level up. So to me, it then becomes a posture of the business more than just these like, Oh, the four day work week does this. It's, I want this to be a component of their life, but not all of their life. I want them to say, I am intentionally showing up to work for practice to the practice because it lights me up in a way that not working here. Couldn't. And so then people stay, people know that if they outgrow their position, that they can pitch something else. And if it works for us.
Erin Diehl (27:28.62)
Yeah.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (27:43.96)
we'll move you into that. So then it just becomes something completely different than just, I'm doing this as a strategy to help people go to the baseball games more.
Erin Diehl (27:53.196)
Yeah, I freaking love it. And people feel that in their bones, you know, people see that they see they see to the heart of it and they feel it when it's an authentic. And I think that's a really authentic lean on making making it about the human being, not the human doing. So kudos to you, Joe. That is phenomenal. And it's so cool to see and hear from another perspective. And I know we're talking about the industrial leaders, right. And I know.
Let's just say this, I have some people in my life, okay, who might've been, I'm not gonna name names, okay Joe, I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna say it, I'm not gonna say it, I want to so bad, I'm not. It's me, it's me, no, but I had a few, I had a naysayer or two when I brought up this idea and it was interesting because I think a lot of people,
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (28:35.832)
It's you, isn't it? It's you.
Erin Diehl (28:49.836)
think this could never work for their organization. It could never work for them. I'll never be as productive. So what would you say to an A -Sayer who might be listening right now when they have the misconception of this won't work, I won't be productive, my team won't be productive?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (28:51.864)
Yeah.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (29:11.384)
I mean, I would start with we need naysayers. We need pushback. We need to have people that poke holes in things because there are very valid pushbacks. So hourly people that work at a Walmart and they just all of a sudden work 32 hours, like that's directly impacting their bottom line. But it also begs the question of why do we have a society where people aren't taken care of? Why do we let people get to age 80 and have no money? Like...
Erin Diehl (29:14.892)
Mm -hmm.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (29:36.696)
At what point do we say you've contributed enough to society, we're going to take care of you. And so there's bigger questions that are revealed through that naysaying. I think what we're seeing in the evidence, whether if you look at the UK studies, you know, the European studies, if you look at Golden, Colorado, Golden, Colorado, CNN just did a really big story about them. They switched their entire county over to the four day work week, including police, ambulance, and fire.
So it's like, what the hell, like that seems really expensive if you're going to have people only work four days, 32 hours instead of, you know, the other side of it. They found that they saved so much in overtime and so much in HR, not having to hire new people every few months and the mistakes that come with that, that they actually saved money overall. It wasn't an expense at all. You know, the amount that they saved was so far surpassed what their old budget was.
that they've permanently switched over to the four day work week in Golden, Colorado. You look at Kalamazoo Valley Community College, who I talk about in the book, they switched over to the four day work week in the summertime and found that they saved millions just in air conditioning costs by shutting off all of the air starting on Thursday night and not turning it on until early Monday morning. So, and you look at staff retention and things like that. So I would say there are industries that will have to get more creative. There are going to have to be questions we ask ourselves. If you're a hundred percent,
commission -based, yeah, you have to have some boundaries as to when is enough enough because no one's going to tell you, hey, stop working at this point. Those are bigger questions that this starts to reveal for us. And I think those naysayers are pointing to things that we do have to talk about. We do have to think through.
Erin Diehl (31:17.42)
I agree. Oh Joe, this is so good. This is so good. It's like the yes and of improv, you know? I love that. You just yes anded the naysayers. So that was awesome in a full circle way. Okay, so I think the most tangible takeaway here too is you're giving us this framework on a document. We can take it, we can use it, we can implement it in our lives. Is there any other steps?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (31:23.96)
Haha!
Erin Diehl (31:42.86)
or any other action items that we didn't talk about that you would like to make sure that the Improve It peeps know before we leave.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (31:49.944)
Yeah, I would say Thursday is the new Friday is definitely aimed at you as the individual, no matter where you work or go. It's not just the macro, we should have a four day work week. The first part starts with your internal inclinations. So what are you drawn to? There's a whole assessment in there that's going to walk you through where do you naturally have these internal inclinations and where do you need some improvement? It's not pass fail. It's just what's your baseline?
And then we walk through why slowing down is where we need to start instead of having it be in reaction to when we're out there killing it. Our best ideas come when we're taking a shower or going for a walk, or maybe we drive and we don't turn on a podcast and we just let our brains go wherever those best ideas come when we slow down. It's not when we're stressed out and maxed out. And so I would say that no matter where you're at, start to pepper in moments of slowing down on the weekend. Find.
one or two things to test out and see if that helps you feel a little bit more alive. Read a book on Saturday morning while drinking green tea and talk to your partner about watching the kids and say, I need an hour to just do this for myself and see if I feel a little bit more alive. Take something off your plate on the weekend. Maybe have your groceries delivered and just see, does that make me feel a little more in tune with who I am as a person? This experimental mindset is the next phase of really how we think as humanity.
It's not that pass fail industrialist mindset that served us at the time. It got us out of working 14 hours a day, six to seven days of work like farmers. But it's not the next phase.
Erin Diehl (33:24.812)
So dope and I love you brought that intention full circle Joe. Yes. Yes. I always get my best ideas in the shower or while drying my hair. It's like the best time. It is the best time. And truly my team and I have talked a lot about this how Fridays are the days where we get the most downloads, where things come to clarity. They're the most clear. I love it so much. And I also love that you said don't slow down as a reaction to speeding up.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (33:33.368)
Yes.
Erin Diehl (33:54.508)
because your girl did that after her book launch. And it's taken a lot longer if I would have just slowed down during the process and not, you know, sped up. So I'm feeling the repercussions of that now. And I think if you have a naturally slow pace and incorporate that more into your life, it just, it really can make things different for you and you can lead a different life and be a leader. Go ahead.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (34:19.16)
Well, I mean, I think you can like, so in the two months leading up to my book launch, I did 200 podcast interviews in those two months. So I wouldn't say I was slow. I just still worked the three day weekend. I still took Friday, Saturday and Sunday off. There were Thursday nights that my throat felt like it was bleeding from talking so much. Like, so I think it's getting into that pattern of slowing down and then sprinting, slowing down and sprinting.
Erin Diehl (34:32.396)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (34:41.036)
Yes.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (34:47.384)
You can go full tilt when you're working. Just recognize that if you push past where you should, you're going to do really crappy work. You're going to make more mistakes. You're not going to think as quickly. The neuroscience shows us that you need to take a break and that you need to reset your mind and that vigilance decrement is something that can be addressed through slowing down.
Erin Diehl (35:06.412)
I love it. It's backed by research, everyone. Listen to Joe. Don't do what I did. And give yourself those moments of slow in between the rocket ships. So, okay, Joe, I always ask this to every guest we have. We say it and prove it, that the it is that thing that you're put here to do. Your purpose, your why. What is Joe's it?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (35:34.072)
I would say I don't have an it that sustains. I think it's finding the it for that season. So right now that it is raising two amazing badass daughters. They're nine and twelve. I'm a near full -time single dad. I've sole physical custody of them. I want when they launch into the world to have a handful of things that they leave with that to me matter in the world.
Erin Diehl (35:43.02)
Ahhhh
Erin Diehl (35:50.764)
Yes!
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (36:03.448)
So I would say that's the biggest it I have right now. And we get to help people growing these amazing businesses that they absolutely love. I mean, that that side of it to the business side of just staying focused on, you know, we've done this podcast for a thousand episodes. We're, you know, helping a bunch of people launch practices and to do that and do that well and improv on Tuesdays.
Erin Diehl (36:26.988)
So that's right, I know Joe does improv on Tuesdays. So that makes me so happy. And I know it makes you happy and your girls happy. You're a wonderful dad and a wonderful podcast host. So check out his show, The Practice of the Practice. Where else can people find you? We're gonna drop the links to the literature you mentioned earlier, but where else can they find you?
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (36:49.56)
Yeah, the website practice of the practice .com has tons of resources for any small business in regards to marketing growth websites, all those supports that you may need. Uh, I would say that's the best place to kind of choose your own adventure and the podcast. We've got a thousand or thousandth episode is going to go live in just a few weeks after this goes live. So tons of content over there. If you're into podcasts, which clearly you are, uh, Aaron's on that show as well. So I'd say check out the podcast also.
Erin Diehl (37:16.748)
Thank you. All right, we're gonna link to it all. Joe, you're the man. This was a slow but steady build and I was here for it all and I hope that everyone listening has something to take away. Thursday is the new Friday. Okay. Thank you, Joe.
Joe Sanok | Thursday is the New Friday (37:33.368)
Thank you, Aaron.
Erin Diehl (37:37.42)
Don't