Episode 241: Are Vulnerable Leaders More Effective? Exploring the Research with Jacob Morgan
What does sharing your “gaps” have to do with vulnerable leadership?
More than you think, and Jacob Morgan is here to explain what that means. Jacob is a 5x Best-Selling Author, Futurist, & Keynote Speaker On Leadership, Employee Experience, & The Future Of Work.
In today’s episode, Jacob joins Erin to discuss why he not only has work life values, but family life values as well; the difference between being vulnerable and leading with vulnerability; and how to not just talk about your mistakes, but work to solve them, and also be okay with making more mistakes as you work to solve them.
Jacob shares an actionable step you can take today to embrace vulnerable leadership—and it has something to do with building your own “vulnerability mountain,” setting up “camp,” and taking the steps to climb it.
If you’re interested in the new era of vulnerable leadership—this is the episode for you.
Special sprinkles on top of this episode: times when your vulnerability can be used for you and times when it can be used against you.
What is the value of being a vulnerable leader?
It's about being honest about struggles, needs, and values. Leaders who embrace vulnerability create a culture where team members feel empowered to be honest and ask for what they need1. This authenticity fosters a sense of connection and trust, laying the foundation for a more inclusive and innovative team. -LinkedIn
How vulnerability can be a leadership superpower?
Vulnerability, often misunderstood as a weakness, is, in fact, a superpower that can transform relationships, foster trust, and inspire change. It is the willingness to be open, honest, and authentic, even in the face of uncertainty and discomfort. -Coactive
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Connect with Erin Diehl:
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
Episode 241 Transcription
Erin Diehl (00:01.703)
Hey Jacob, welcome to the Improve It podcast. I'm so happy we have you. Yeah, all the way from California. So, and I mean, everybody who's listening is from all over the place. So I just, I love asking people where they're located. I also love having a theme for the show every month and this month's theme is becoming. So could we set an intention for our time together?
Jacob (00:08.59)
Yeah, thank you for having me.
Erin Diehl (00:31.047)
Maybe it's one word you want to give yourself. Maybe it's one word you want to give our audience. What is one word that comes to mind for you?
Jacob (00:40.398)
Well, I think one of the things we're going to talk about today is vulnerability, so I would go with that one.
Erin Diehl (00:45.159)
Okay, I love it and we're gonna go there. We're gonna go all in I want to talk about this theme too of becoming Because every month we dive into a different theme What does the word? Becoming mean to you?
Jacob (01:01.198)
Um, becoming a better version of you. It's one of the things that I'm working on with my kids as well. So, always becoming better.
Erin Diehl (01:04.519)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (01:09.831)
Mm -hmm. How old are your kids?
Jacob (01:12.654)
I have a soon to be four year old and a soon to be eight year old. Yeah, on time.
Erin Diehl (01:16.263)
Wow, okay, and I have a four and a half year old. Yeah, I know that, the four year old journey. I'm not at the eight year old journey, but I know that you're watching them become different versions of themselves every day and kind of guiding them through that. Has there been a time in your life where you felt like you really stepped into who you're supposed to become?
Jacob (01:37.902)
I'd say it's been, well, you mean parenting -wise or just general?
Erin Diehl (01:41.287)
Just, you could be parenting or it could be general.
Jacob (01:44.11)
Well, I'd say parenting wise more so in the past, oh, I don't know, year or so, just trying to work on things that I never thought I would do. So for example, we're working on our, not corporate values, but like family values. So just like an organization has some values that they have that represent what it's like to work at that company, we're working on our Morgan family values. So every time at dinner, we sit around.
Erin Diehl (01:59.591)
Yeah.
Jacob (02:09.71)
while we're eating and my daughter, my wife, myself, and even my four year old son likes to chime in a little bit and we say, well, you know, what, what represents our family? What are some of the things that we stand for? And, you know, sometimes they'll shout out funny things like we love dessert. And I'm like, yes, that's true. That's a good, that's a good value. But then we also have other things in there. Like, um, we have something called no wine zone. Um, meaning, you know, when somebody's whining about something that's really silly and somebody else catches it, we say, hey, it's a no wine zone.
and we have other things like be brave and speak up. So working on stuff like that has been really fun and meaningful for me and just to see how the kids respond and how they try to live those values. And when my daughter and my son notice that somebody else isn't living those values, they'll catch onto it and we start rewarding the right behaviors.
So we talk about manners a lot. And so when somebody has good manners, my daughter or my son will say, oh, good manners. So we're, you know, we're trying to bring that into, into our house. And it's, it's, it's pretty fun and rewarding to see you create these little people and trying to help them become the best version of themselves, which also helps me become the best version of me.
Erin Diehl (03:22.887)
Isn't it funny? They're like your best feature, you know, they really are. And it's also, I don't, I'm not sure who would you say, like is one of your children more like you or your partner? Does one remind you of yourself more than the other?
Jacob (03:24.014)
Yeah.
Jacob (03:38.318)
Yeah, I mean, they both have attributes of each of us, but maybe it's because the different ages, but I'd say my daughter, well, both, right? My son is very silly and likes to mess around, which she gets from, you know, I mean, my wife can be like that too, but that reminds me of me. And my daughter is also very competitive and she hates losing and she can be very serious. And she gets some of that, like I have that in me too, where I hate losing. So I think, you know, depending on the situation,
Erin Diehl (03:42.183)
Yeah.
Jacob (04:08.046)
they each have a little bit of each of us.
Erin Diehl (04:10.567)
Yeah, I hear that. It's so, for me, I think I have one son and it's kind of like watching myself in the mirror sometimes. And when I catch that, there's the best parts and then there's the not so great parts. And so it's such a good reminder of who they're becoming, who you want to become and how you can help get them to the place that you know that they can be. So I love that.
Jacob (04:36.622)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (04:38.471)
Okay, well let's go to your intention. Let's talk about vulnerability because this is you. This is what you're here to talk to us in the world about. I love this question. What's the difference between being vulnerable versus leading with vulnerability?
Jacob (04:55.534)
It's a big distinction. And I'm sure a lot of people who listen and watch your show have heard of the concept of vulnerability. And, you know, we've both done improv and improv can also feel very vulnerable at times, especially when you first start doing it. But vulnerability in the context of work, mind you, is really this idea about saying or doing something that exposes you to the potential of emotional harm. Now in your personal life, it's very clear why you want to do that because it creates trust, builds relationships, creates connections.
You do this with your significant other, with friends, with family. But at work, we have a very different dynamic. You have a salary, you have a boss, you have employees, customers, projects, deadlines. And so if you just show up to work every day, talking about gaps that you have and sharing the gaps that you have, it's actually gonna hurt you far more than it can help you. Because you have to imagine you are there because you have a certain responsibility, you are paid to do a certain job.
And so you can't just show up to work every day talking about the gaps that you have. I made a mistake. I'm sorry. I'm going through a hard time. I don't know how to do this. Can you please help me? At a certain point, somebody's going to look at you and say, Hey, maybe this isn't a good fit. So vulnerability is basically about exposing and sharing these gaps that you have. Leading with vulnerability on the other hand is about sharing the gaps that you have and demonstrating what you yourself are trying to do to close those gaps.
So a very simple example is let's say you made a mistake on a project. Being vulnerable would be going to your boss at the time and saying, Hey, I'm really sorry. I messed this up. I made a terrible mistake. Leading with vulnerability would say, I'm really sorry. I know I messed this up, but here's what I learned from the mistake. And here's what I'm going to do going forward to make sure that this mistake doesn't happen again. Because again, in the context of work, if you go to your boss to just talk about a mistake or something like that, your boss is never going to look at you and say, Oh gee, thank you for telling me you made that mistake.
your boss is gonna look at you and say, well, yeah, I guess, thanks for telling me, but the customer is still unhappy. The project is still not complete. The deadline has still not been met. The revenue goals are still not there. What are you gonna do about it? And so I always tell current and aspiring leaders, purely being vulnerable at work can hurt you far more than it can help you. But if you can add the leadership, the competence to that vulnerability, it can completely transform your career and how other people perceive you.
Erin Diehl (06:59.975)
Mm -hmm.
Jacob (07:15.726)
So that's the big difference. One is purely talking about the gaps that you have, and the other one is talking about the gaps and demonstrating what you're trying to do to close those gaps.
Erin Diehl (07:25.127)
So many thoughts, Jacob. Sometimes I sing. Okay, yes. Okay, come on. Come on, no, I'm just kidding. Listen, I'll do the improvised scatting on this show. So, okay. So many thoughts and it made me think parallel to improv, which I know you're familiar with and anyone listening to this show who's been here a long time, which a lot of people have. We used to call this show the failed it podcast, by the way. The name of my company is Improve It.
Jacob (07:28.91)
Don't expect me to think that's not gonna happen.
Jacob (07:51.63)
Ah.
Erin Diehl (07:54.343)
but it used to be called the failed podcast. And reason was because one of the biggest rules of improv comedy are there are no mistakes, only gifts. And so we were talking about the gifts that people received through failure as a leader and how that helped them. So when I'm hearing you talk about vulnerability, I know this is a roundabout way, I promise you I'm gonna nail it, is that.
I'm seeing the leading with vulnerability as the opportunity to say, hey, I failed, I messed up, but failure, I'm going to transform that into a leading opportunity, a lesson learning opportunity, and I'm going to teach from that place. Would you say that sounds accurate?
Jacob (08:38.414)
It's not even just an opportunity, it's a requirement. If you want to be in a leadership role, it's a requirement. And it's not just making a mistake. It could be when you ask for help. You know, I have a small team of people that I work with and they frequently ask me for help or they come to me and they'll say, Hey, I don't know how to do this. Can you help me? And you know, my response to them is always, yeah, sure. I can help you, but what are you going to do in the future to solve your own problem so that I don't become the bottleneck?
Erin Diehl (08:41.319)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (09:03.463)
Mm. Mm -hmm.
Jacob (09:05.038)
So regardless of what it is, we see this in our personal lives too. Somebody says they want to stop smoking. Somebody says they want to eat healthy or exercise. Your response is always, well, great. What are you doing? Are you, are you going to class? Are you right? You want to know what are you doing? So don't just tell me the gap. I want to know what you're doing to improve, to become better. And I think that's the big mistake that a lot of people make is we oftentimes use vulnerability as a way to justify poor performance. I messed up.
Erin Diehl (09:32.807)
Mm.
Jacob (09:33.454)
to justify that I'm messing up I'm gonna use vulnerability the way to kind of shield myself from my mistake I don't want to take accountability. I'm not gonna own the mistake that I made I'm just going to use vulnerability as a way to you know, Diffuse the accountability and competence piece that I'm lacking and that's not a good way to lead that's not a good way to work inside of an organization and it's uncomfortable because it forces you to not just
talk about issues, but to try to figure out how to solve them, even if you make a mistake solving them. So it makes you much more accountable, much more responsible. It puts you in the driver's seat. And a lot of people don't like that because usually, especially at work, if we make a mistake, we, we feel like, okay, there's gotta be somebody I can go to to help, uh, to help me. Somebody else can solve the problem for me. And that's just not how life works. And that's not how a lot of business, uh, situations work either. So you're.
Your team, your leaders want to know that you are out there being accountable, that you're solving problems, that if you're making mistakes that you're learning from them, that if you need help, you're going to figure out ways to get help, and that you're not just going to be somebody who's, you know, gap, gap, gap, gap, gap, gap. At a certain point, you're not going to be a good fit for that company.
Erin Diehl (10:49.671)
Yeah, makes total sense. I love it.
Jacob (10:51.95)
Yeah, and there's a concept in psychology called the Pratt -Volvec, by the way, which some people might be familiar with, which basically states that, you know, there's a very strong relationship between competence and vulnerability. Meaning that if you are a highly competent person and then you're vulnerable, for example, you make a mistake, people now view you as being more competent, more likable, more human, because you've already demonstrated your competence. Now with making a mistake and being vulnerable, you're demonstrating your human side.
And that gives you kind of like a one plus one equals three approach. However, if you're not good at your job, you're not demonstrating competence and you're vulnerable, such as talking about mistakes that you made, all that does is reinforce your mediocrity. So you have to be very careful with how you approach vulnerability specifically in a work setting.
Erin Diehl (11:41.575)
Interesting and that makes total sense to me too. Listen, I don't like to brag, but I call myself a failfluencer. Okay. And that is, let me, can I say this, Jacob? Just mono, we mono. I'm just going to share this. So I came up with this terminology during 2020 because I just felt like I was failing left and right and I was influencing other people at the time. I wouldn't say I was competent.
I wouldn't say I was competent when I gave myself that title. And now, I mean, I led myself and my team through change. So I guess you can say I was competent and we totally pivoted our business, but I really was failing and I was talking about those failures and I think a lot of people were at the time, but I see that difference as if I'm this person who is competent and then I'm showing my human side.
Jacob (12:39.79)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (12:40.615)
versus if I'm not showing my competency, it looks like I'm just flopping, right? I'm just failing all over the place. Okay, so let's address this, because I think this is really interesting. You know what I do for a living? I go into companies and I ask them to use improv to be their high selves. A lot of people right there. Yeah, so you even smile. You see that awkward smile? Like everybody gets it a little bit, right?
Jacob (12:48.27)
Yeah. Yeah.
Jacob (13:01.422)
That must be fun.
Jacob (13:07.406)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (13:08.199)
And it's like another day at the office for me. And I get that this is, and I have a team of 22 professionals who we do this together. When we go in, we know we're there to make people get comfortable with the uncomfortable. When we talk about vulnerability and leading with vulnerability, people also kind of get that hesitancy. What are some of the reasons why people are hesitant to lead with vulnerability? What are some of the things that you see?
Jacob (13:35.886)
Well, the number one reason is people don't want to be perceived as being weak or incompetent, right? You don't want to talk about a gap that you have because people are going to look at you and say, Oh, I knew you shouldn't be in that role. I knew you shouldn't be doing what you're doing. And so the way that you solve that, the solution is actually in the question. So how do you use vulnerability, um, without making yourself seem incompetent is you add competence to the vulnerability.
Erin Diehl (13:40.839)
Mm -hmm.
Jacob (14:03.15)
And that's exactly what we talked about, right? It's how do you add the, here's what I learned from my mistake to the mistake. So whatever, you know, whenever I tell a current and aspiring leaders, whenever they know that there's vulnerability that's going to be present, try to add that level of leadership, try to add that level of competence into the mix. Right. Um, you know, I don't know what I should do, you know, but, but I think I have a couple ideas here. I've been doing a little bit of research on this. Maybe you can give me a little bit of feedback on this. I made a mistake, but here's what I learned.
I'm not feeling great. I'm going through a tough time, but you know, I reached out to a couple people to try to get support I'm a first -time leader I've no I never done this before and I'm very nervous to be a first -time leader but I'm gonna be meeting with our CMO once every month and she's gonna be giving me feedback and how I can become better and I have an executive like I'm demonstrating what I'm trying to do to close that gap and I think that's a very very important thing to remember for everybody is Add that leadership to the vulnerability whenever you can
Erin Diehl (15:01.127)
Yeah. And you can see when somebody is doing that genuinely too. You can feel that shift and you can feel... I also love that you said, I don't know, but here's some of the things I'm looking at. Like I also think, and tell me, I lead a team, but you're the expert here. Saying I don't know also is a vulnerable thing to say, but it also shows that you're trying to find the answer by giving the backup support and solution.
Jacob (15:26.958)
Ahem.
Erin Diehl (15:30.919)
I think saying I don't know as a leader, and I'll get back to you where I'm going to find the answers, is just showing competence. Would you agree with that?
Jacob (15:38.67)
Yeah, I mean, I think purely saying, I don't know, probably doesn't help anybody. But to say, I don't know, but here's what I think, or I don't know, let me do a little bit of research and get back to you with a couple of solutions. That is a far more effective approach than being in a meeting and somebody calls on you and says, hey, what do you think about the new direction that we should be taking, or about this strategy? And you say, that's a great question, I have no idea. Like that doesn't.
Erin Diehl (15:46.727)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (15:50.375)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (16:04.551)
Mm -hmm.
Jacob (16:06.382)
that in no way, shape or form reflects positively on you at all. It just makes you seem like you don't belong in that meeting. Whereas if you say, hey, you know, that's a really good question. I have a couple ideas here that I'm willing to share. I'm not sure if any of them are the best course of action, but here are a couple different possibilities that we might be able to take and I'd love your feedback. You know, you don't have to be right, but simply just, you know, here's my gap.
Erin Diehl (16:12.263)
totally.
Erin Diehl (16:27.751)
Mm.
Yes.
Jacob (16:35.374)
and throwing that in front of everyone's face is not the best approach. And so a lot of people think that when you bring in that leadership or the competence piece, it means you have to be right. You don't, you could still be wrong, but at least show that you are trying to close that gap that you have. And I think that is the most important thing from anything that we're talking about today.
Erin Diehl (16:39.751)
I love it.
Erin Diehl (16:55.399)
Me too. There's such a parallel for me here with improv. I keep drawing it back, but there really is. If you're familiar, as you know, with yes and, what you're saying is, say, yes, I hear you, and here's a solution. Add the, lead with the competency, showing the solution versus the no is just stopping the I don't know, the no is just stopping the conversation in its tracks. So how we make scenes move forward on stage is yes and, and that's how.
Jacob (17:08.334)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (17:23.239)
you're saying leaders who can lead with vulnerability are yes anding the problem at hand. They're yes anding the person asking the question and the stop gap is not is the no. It's the it's the just fun squashing or squash or the fun vacuum stopping productivity in its tracks. I see that so clearly, which is so cool. So, OK, can I ask this question? When you see teams and I know you work with a variety of different teams, but when you see teams,
Jacob (17:43.342)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (17:52.967)
case studies of people leading with vulnerability. What does that culture look like? How does that impact the engagement of that culture?
Jacob (18:01.326)
Well, from the research that we did, we surveyed 14 ,000 employees at companies around the world. And this was in partnership with a leadership firm called DDI. And we see that inside these organizations, the leaders who lead with a vulnerability often are always when appropriate, keyword there, those leaders are perceived to be as high as, as higher quality. The teams inside these organizations are more productive. They're more engaged in their work.
They're more likely to trust their managers. They're more likely to create an inclusive environment where everybody can show up and feel like they can speak up and share ideas. They're more than twice as likely to drive innovation. So we see a very, very clear ROI in terms of why you would want to do this. But unfortunately, most organizations around the world don't do this because that's what the other part of the research showed is that we're not comfortable with this. Most people work for a leader who does not do this.
yet it's also very important to do this. And that's kind of the problem there, right? We know it's important, but we're not doing it. And I hope that the book and some of the research will guide people on how to actually do it the right way.
Erin Diehl (19:10.599)
I love it. Okay, so this is what I want to talk about. If we have a leader listening today who is questioning whether or not they are leading with vulnerability, what is one action item that you would tell them to do to start leading with vulnerability? If you could say, start here, don't pass go, what would that be?
Jacob (19:32.686)
There are a few things actually. So there are a couple frameworks in the book that I have. One of them is these eight attributes of vulnerable leaders. So these are the eight, you know, there's three, four leadership and five, four vulnerability. And I won't go through all of them, but they include things like being able to have, you know, motivate yourself to close the gaps. To include things like having empathy or self -awareness. So knowing what those attributes are is certainly important, but as far as a very specific action that people can take,
It's this idea of building your vulnerability mountain and then climbing it. And what that means is identify what's the scariest thing that you can't imagine doing that's at the top of the mountain. And then identify what's a base camp for you. And base camp is something that you could do today, tomorrow, something that's very easy. And then once you have your base camp and you have that kind of scary point at the top of the mountain, then every day slowly you take steps to get to that top of the mountain.
And yes, you will make mistakes, you will fall, vulnerability will be used against you at some point. You're going to have all sorts of interesting experiences. But the higher up the mountain you climb, the farther out you can see the more beautiful the vistas become, the more people you meet on your journey. And you'll see tremendous value in actually doing it. So identify what's at that base camp for you, identify what's at that top of the mountain for you, and then you climb. One of the CEOs I interviewed is Penny Pennington.
She's the CEO of Edward Jones, big financial institution. I think they have 55 ,000 employees. And, you know, she told me she was very uncomfortable with this. And whenever she would get into the elevator with employees, she had nothing to say. And she felt very weird and awkward and vulnerable, but she also knew the importance of connecting with her employees. And so to start, she would give herself a little cheat sheet and, you know, maybe sometimes she would even write it down on a little note card to kind of rehearse it. And so she'd had this kind of...
canned response so that when people would get in the elevator with her, she had sort of a little script that she would say around maybe what she did over the weekend or what she learned or something that she's experiencing or going through. And she did that to start until she got comfortable with it. And now she leads this way entirely. And so, you know, picking up what is that little easy thing that you can do starting tomorrow is a great starting point.
Erin Diehl (21:52.039)
That's really nice. That's like, I mean, and it could, do you have an example of something she might've said in that elevator?
Jacob (21:58.35)
Um, how was the example she gave me? I think one of the things that she said was she would talk about what she did over the weekend and, you know, maybe, uh, what she learned or how she's doing. So it might be, you know, I had a barbecue with my family and, uh, you know, here's some things that I was going over and some things that we talked about, you know, what, what about you? And she just did it as a way to try to create that connection with her employees. Um, because otherwise they would get in the elevator and be this awkward silence, uh, which, you know, with the CEO sometimes is not the ideal thing that you want.
Erin Diehl (22:22.535)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (22:27.207)
Yes, yes, and I will tell you, listen, I'm sure you're sure that my elevator rides would be filled with noise. But I could imagine if you're an employee in that elevator with the CEO of a 55 ,000 person company and you don't hear anything from the CEO on the way up or the way down, you're going to remember that ride. But if you're in that elevator, yes, but if you're in that elevator with the CEO of a 55 ,000 person company and she asks you,
Jacob (22:48.622)
Yeah, or maybe you think you're getting fired.
Erin Diehl (22:56.679)
How was your weekend? That's like pretty dope. And then you'll remember that conversation forever because you may not be in that elevator with a CEO ever again. So I love that. And that's an intentional choice. That's an intentional thing that someone is doing because it makes it less transactional. It makes it more about the human being versus the human doing, which I'm a big fan of. Something that you said that I want to ask, you said,
your vulnerability can be used against you. What are some scenarios that you've seen vulnerability being used against you?
Jacob (23:29.198)
Yes.
Jacob (23:35.758)
Oh, it can happen all the time. It could be, you know, maybe you talk about a mistake that you made at work and somebody on your team says, see, you know, that's why you shouldn't be promoted because you clearly aren't able to use that, you know, handle this role. Um, so there are all sorts of situations talking about, uh, personal issues, talking about issues that you might have at work or something that you don't know how to do. It's very easy to imagine scenarios. And probably a lot of people have experienced that where somebody might take that information.
stab them in the back with it and keep them from getting promoted or keep them from getting hired or keep them from who knows what and the truth is that that will happen to probably every single person watching and listening to this at some point in their life and so what I can tell you is that vulnerability will be used against you at some point but not nearly as often as you think and that's kind of the big distinction here right is what do you do when vulnerability is used against you do you choose to
say I'm never gonna be vulnerable again, or do you choose to turn that into a learning moment and see how you can become a better person out of it and what you learned about yourself and this situation going forward? And I have lots of crazy stories in the book of how that's happened with various CEOs.
Erin Diehl (24:51.591)
I love it. You're leading with authority right there after being challenged with your vulnerability. You're leading with vulnerability right out of the gates by coming up with that solution. Who is, this is just a personal question, wanna know, who is somebody in your life or that maybe they could be a celebrity, they could be somebody close to you that radiates vulnerability?
Jacob (25:16.846)
My wife.
Erin Diehl (25:18.599)
Oh, give her a little shout out. She better listen this episode. What's her name? Blake Morgan. Listen up. Okay, tell us about Blake Morgan. I love it.
Jacob (25:22.606)
Blake Morgan.
Yeah.
Well, she's my wife and she's much better about...
talking about challenges and struggles and being more open than I am, even though I wrote a book about this, but it's still, you know, I grew up with a Russian immigrant parent, well, the Republic of Georgia immigrant parents. And so my dad growing up always said that you shouldn't talk about your feelings and your emotions or your challenges and always try to be number one and keep things to yourself. My mom was the exact opposite, but I grew up, you know, watching and emulating my dad. And so vulnerabilities.
still very weird and uncomfortable and hard for me. And I, you know, I'm certainly trying to get better at it, but it feels like for my wife, it's just second nature. It's very easy for her to talk about a difficult time or a struggle. And sometimes I even tell her, I'm like, you know, you're sharing too much. Like, why would you be sharing this? And sometimes that's true, right? Sometimes she does, you know, she can be too vulnerable or sometimes she can say things that maybe are not in her best interest, either personally or professionally.
Jacob (26:34.574)
But, you know, I'm amazed at how many times she does it and people respond positively to her and to her message. So, you know, clearly she's got something figured out that I need to figure out.
Erin Diehl (26:39.143)
Hmm.
Erin Diehl (26:43.943)
Yeah. Okay. So what does Blake do for a living?
Jacob (26:47.342)
She does what I do, but focuses on customer experience.
Erin Diehl (26:50.631)
Wow, okay. That is... Yeah.
Jacob (26:51.758)
Yeah, I talk about leadership and future of work and employee experience. So she's a speaker, she writes books, but she does everything focused more on customer experience.
Erin Diehl (27:01.799)
Love it. See, and there's something with being vulnerable and being in that type of role, like a sales oriented customer focused role that I think really resonates with people. You have to share this episode with her. OK, so she can share it with her friends. So everybody knows that was really awesome. That was really cool. I'm not sure if I asked my husband that question, if he would have said me. OK, he might have been like, she just shares the world and she's blabs or gums all day long.
Jacob (27:02.638)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (27:31.751)
But that is so awesome. And the things that you shared about her were also really interesting too, because it feels like she's leading with vulnerability and people feel a little less alone when she does that.
Jacob (27:48.046)
Yeah, yeah, for sure. I mean, especially in our personal life, a lot of her friends appreciate that. Again, you can get into trouble and I'm sure she's had it used against her as well, I should ask her. But it does create a lot of great connections and relationships for her because she does have some close friends that she probably wouldn't have if she wasn't able to do that.
Erin Diehl (28:07.559)
Yeah, I want to ask you the opposite of this question, but I'm just not because there's, is there, you don't have to name a name, but is there a case study or a situation that you've witnessed when somebody just didn't lead with vulnerability at all and there was, it was a downfall for the people they were leading.
Jacob (28:27.406)
Um, yeah, I mean, one of the stories I have in the book is from Hollis Harris, who's the former CEO of Continental Airlines. Now he was very vulnerable, but he didn't have any leadership that he brought to it. And so the company was going through a tough time in the early nineties and he sent out a memo to his entire workforce talking about all the challenges and problems and struggles that the company was going through. But then he ended his memo by saying that the best thing you could do is to pray for the future of the company. And the next day he was fired.
So that's the situation where a leader was very vulnerable, but they didn't add any leadership to it. And so because they didn't add that leadership to it, it caused chaos and panic and pandemonium and the CEO ended up getting fired the very next day.
And then I have also stories of the exact opposite where other CEOs were in similar situations. For example, Fleetwood Grobbler, he's the CEO of a company called Sassol, a South African energy company, also tens of thousands of employees. And he too, you know, took over the company was $13 billion in debt. The banks were about to come in and take it over. He also had to give a message to his workforce and his message started off with vulnerability. They have the challenges, the struggles and stuff like that.
But then he added the leadership piece and he talked about how he had a vision of where the company can go and that if employees helped him figure out the exact path forward, that they'd be able to rebuild trust in their customers and in their employees. And he, you know, he painted a picture of what this future could be like. So he was vulnerable, but he added the leadership piece and the company ended up turning around and becoming very successful. So that's the difference, right? Between when you're purely just talking about the gaps versus, hey, the gap, I know we're struggling.
but I know here's how we can get out of it or here's what that future could look like. And it's a very different scenario.
Erin Diehl (30:16.455)
Yeah.
huge. I'm never going to look at the word vulnerability again without leading with in front of it. Truly. That's all right. So before I get into my favorite little series of questions here, is there anything regarding vulnerability that we didn't talk about or leading with vulnerability that you want to make sure our improvement peeps leave with today?
Jacob (30:24.11)
Yep. Got to add that leadership piece.
Jacob (30:43.566)
I mean, there's a lot of stuff to talk about, but I think we covered kind of the high level, the most important themes, which are, you know, you can't just have the leadership and you can't just have the vulnerability. Because if you only have vulnerability, people will think you're incompetent. And if you only have leadership, people will think that you're a robot because you can't connect with anybody. So, you know, the ideal situation there is you want to be able to have the two most important aspects of leadership, competence and connection.
Erin Diehl (30:56.615)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (31:00.135)
Yep.
Jacob (31:13.55)
Good at your job, connect with your people. And I think that's the most important message from all of this is leadership plus vulnerability equals leading with vulnerability. So whenever somebody identifies one, they should always ask, how can they bring in the other?
Erin Diehl (31:17.127)
Hmm.
Erin Diehl (31:27.463)
So here for that equation, okay? I love it. X plus blank equals this. Yes, yes, okay. So this is called my minute to win it at improve it. Lots of it's, okay? And I'm gonna ask you to give me the answers to these questions in one or two words, if you can, as short as possible. We're gonna do it in a minute. And it's just a fun get to know Jacob moment, okay? So are you ready? I'm gonna put a minute on the clock. Jacob, are you ready for your minute to win it?
Jacob (31:31.79)
Try to keep it simple.
Jacob (31:57.102)
Can I say no? Does it matter? Oh, then I'm ready.
Erin Diehl (31:58.695)
No, no, we got to do this. Come on. Yeah. Okay. All right. Here we go. What is the best leadership book you've ever read?
Jacob (32:09.87)
Oh my God, I don't really read a lot of leadership books.
Erin Diehl (32:12.935)
Okay, best book, best book, best career book.
Jacob (32:14.83)
Oh, um, uh, career book. I mean, I read a lot of science fiction. I don't read really business books, so that's kind of hard. I try to stay away from any business. Uh, probably Ender's Game or iRobot.
Erin Diehl (32:23.879)
Okay, your favorite book, favorite book.
Erin Diehl (32:29.511)
Awesome. Okay, best TV show.
Jacob (32:31.662)
Right now we're watching Shogun, which is fantastic.
Erin Diehl (32:35.207)
Okay, best podcast you've ever listened to besides this one.
Jacob (32:40.558)
I listen to Patrick but David podcast. It's a little bit of a political podcast debate show. I find that enjoyable.
Erin Diehl (32:49.383)
Nice. Okay, favorite song to pump you up before you speak in front of an audience.
Jacob (32:54.958)
Um...
Favorite song. Anything that's like house music.
Erin Diehl (33:05.575)
Nice. Okay, it's a minute. I had more, but you nailed it. I feel good about it. This was fun.
Jacob (33:08.878)
You can ask more if you want. The career book question threw us off because I don't really read business books. I try to, you know, most of what I, or where I learn from is, you know, I interview a lot of people and I work with different leaders and so that's where I get a lot of my lessons learned from. But I try not to read other business books that much.
Erin Diehl (33:29.511)
And why is that? Can I ask that? What's the reason?
Jacob (33:32.686)
Because for me, the most effective way to learn is from the leaders themselves instead of other people who were, you know, who wrote books about those leaders. So right now I'm working on the second edition of the employee experience advantage book, which will come out next year. And so, you know, I could read HR studies, I could read HR books, but instead I'm interviewing a hundred chief human resource officers myself. And so that to me is far more valuable than reading a book about somebody else who read the people that I'm talking to directly.
Erin Diehl (33:36.487)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (33:40.039)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (33:52.519)
Nice.
Jacob (34:00.718)
So I try to, you know, when I'm reading, I try to read, like right now I'm going to try reading Master and Margarita, which is a old book published by a Soviet author, I think in the 40s or 50s. I'm reading just a wide variety and genre of different books. Yeah.
Erin Diehl (34:00.935)
I love it.
Erin Diehl (34:22.503)
That's awesome. And I love that. You just jump around to what you're feeling and feeling called to at the time. I love it. I love it. Okay, this is my final question. We say at Improve It, your it is that thing or that purpose that you're here to do. What is your it?
Jacob (34:26.798)
Exactly.
Jacob (34:39.118)
Thank you.
So I say to create engaged or to create great leaders, engaged employees and future ready organizations. So kind of those aligned to the three areas that I focus on.
Erin Diehl (34:51.911)
Nice. Okay, and I know the Improvet peeps, that's what we call our audience, the Improvet peeps. I know they're gonna want to find you. Where can they find you?
Jacob (35:01.134)
Pretty easy to find. My website is thefutureorganization .com. I have a sub stack, which is greatleadership .substack .com. My email is jacob at thefutureorganization .com for anybody who wants to reach out to me. And the new book is called Leading with Vulnerability. And you could type that into Amazon or wherever you buy books.
Erin Diehl (35:22.887)
I love it. Okay, we're gonna link all of those in the show notes. I gotta say, I feel like we covered your intention for this show. I think we talked about vulnerability. We drove it home, but more importantly, we talked about leading with vulnerability. So thank you for sharing your insights. Congrats on the book and thank you for being here, Jacob.
Jacob (35:43.95)
Thank you for having me.