Episode 80: You CAN give feedback as a Leader, and it CANNOT be triggering with Kim Scott
Are you struggling with providing feedback to your team in this new hybrid world? Are you wondering how to ask for feedback for yourself, in a way that will solicit the best response?
If this sounds like you – then improve it! fam – We. Have. An. Episode. For. You.
Today’s guest is the one and only Kim Scott! Not only is she the brains behind Radical Candor, she’s also one of Erin’s favorite authors on the planet! You’ll listen in on this world renowned author’s writing process, her take on Radical Candor, parenting, books she’s reading, but most importantly, feedback and soliciting feedback as a leader.
Grab your notebook, iPad, tablet, or whatever you take notes on, because this episode is full of juicy chicken nuggets. Let’s get to improvin’ it!
Show Links:
Radical Candor – Kim Scott’s Book
Just Work – Kim Scott’s New Book
Connect with Kim Scott: Kim Scott is the author of Just Work: Get *t Done Fast and Fair as well as Radical Candor: Be a Kick-Ass Boss Without Losing Your Humanity. She co-founded two companies that help organizations put the ideas in her books into practice. Kim was a CEO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter, and other tech companies. Kim previously held leadership roles at Apple and Google. Earlier in her career Kim managed a pediatric clinic in Kosovo and started a diamond-cutting factory in Moscow.
Kim's LinkedIn
Connect with Erin Diehl:
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
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Episode 80 Transcription
Erin (00:00):
Improve it! Family, oh my gosh. I am still buzzing. I am electric right now. I literally just hit pause on this interview with Kim Scott. You're hearing the beginning of the show, but you're hearing me come off of an interview that was truly life-changing the guest you are going to hear today, Kim Scott, is I mean, if you don't know her, give her a quick Google, just one of my favorite authors on the planet. She has written the book radical candor, and she has a new book out called just work as a fancy new tagline. So I'm going to let, I'm just going to call it just work. But Kim Scott is an icon to me. And to have her on this show to talk to you, to talk to us, I mean, it's literally one of my favorite interviews and she goes deep.
Erin (01:02):
I mean, she tells us about her writing process. She's a world renowned author, and it's so interesting to hear her take on what radical candor is in just three words. All we talk about parenting. We talk about the books that she's binging on audible. We also talk about feedback and soliciting feedback first and foremost as a leader. And then also how you can do that, Questions that you can ask and the steps that you can take to solicit that feedback. It's so interesting. It runs in such a parallel with improv comedy and Kim is no stranger to improv. She has actually worked with the second city works. She has really, she knows a mutual friend of ours in the improv world. And today was just had real treat for me to get to hear from her directly and get to share this with you.
Erin (02:02):
I am, I am buzzing with electricity here. It was so cool. And I know you're going to love it. So here is how Kim Scott is improving it. She is the author of just work with a new tagline coming. You'll hear that in the show. She is also the author of one of my favorite business books, radical candor, be a kickass boss without losing your humanity. And she's the co-founder of the company, radical candor. She was a CEO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrix, Twitter, and other tech companies. She was a member of the faculty at apple university and she, before that she led ad sense YouTube and DoubleClick teams at Google. She has started a diamond cutting factory in Moscow, and she lived with her family in Silicon valley. Oh, it is so good. You are going to want a pen and paper for this episode and you've already heard me say a swear word in this episode, but you've got little ones running around.
Erin (03:03):
Grab either ear muffs, put on your earbuds. Oh, get ready to tune in for such a great show. So improve it fam get ready. Here is the interview with the one, the only Kim Scott, are you a leader or change maker inside of your business organization or corporation? Are you looking for new innovative ways to drive more routes through the roof? Are you looking for fun and exciting icebreakers team-building exercises and activities that will foster team growth, friendships, loyalty, and completely transform your organization from the inside out? Have you been searching for a fun and unique way to create change instead of this same old dry, boring leadership books and icebreakers that aren't actually working? Hi, I'm Erin Diehl, business improv edutainer, failfluencer, and professional zoombie who is ready to help you improve it. My mission in life is to help you develop teams and leaders through play improv and experiential learning. And this podcast, we will deep dive into professional development team building effective communication, networking, presentation, skills, leadership training, how to think more quickly on your feet and everything in between. We have helped everyone from fortune 500 companies to small mom and pop shops transform their business, their leadership, and their people through clay. So grab your chicken hat. We are about to have some fun, welcome to improve it. The podcast
Erin (04:55):
Oh my goodness. I am so excited to have the one and the only Kim Scott you're, you're a hero. Welcome to the improve it! Podcast.
Kim (05:07):
Thank you. I am thrilled to be here and excited for this conversation.
Erin (05:11):
I feel like I just won the lottery. Okay. So no, I am honored to have you on the show. So many people, a part of our audience here have just known, had little kind of tips that you were coming, and I cannot wait for this conversation. So before we dive in, hopefully everyone listening has read radical candor or your new book just work.
Kim (05:36):
Or both of them.
Erin (05:38):
Okay. So let me ask you this. What is a fun fact that we couldn't find from either book or books that you've written there's more than just these books? I know that you've written, but what are, what's a fun fact about you that we couldn't find from your bio, from your books? Or even let's say Twitter or LinkedIn. What's a fun Kim Scott fact?
Kim (06:00):
So I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee, and I used to love to go hunting with my father. Not because I loved shooting birds, but because I loved my father. And and I was my father's. My first job really was that I was my father's bird dog. I was his, I would shoot these. He would shoot these birds and I would run out and fetch them for him. So that was my very first job.
Erin (06:29):
Please put that on. That needs to go on your LinkedIn profile! Bird dog hunting. Yes okay!
Kim (06:37):
And I was so much smarter than anybody else's bird dog, you know, I really felt like I was excelling at that easily trained.
Erin (06:46):
Yeah. Yeah. Good. Could bring back stuff, get, bring back drinks, beverages more than more than the average dog. Okay. This is amazing. So I know we talked a little bit before the show that you are a mom to 12 year old twins.
Kim (07:02):
Yes. Very, very efficient. A boy and a girl, very efficient family planning that my husband, Andy and I did.
Erin (07:10):
Yeah, it really is. So there are 12 and I, I wanted to ask you this. So I read in radical candor that you w were pushed, I believe by Cheryl. Was it Sheryl Sandberg to start a family? You were a little bit, you felt like you were older in your career.
Kim (07:27):
I was older. I mean, I was, I was officially diagnosed with advanced maternal age. So
Erin (07:33):
I was myself, by the way, I may infertility warrior myself here. Okay. Fill you right here. And multiple times, this, my child is definitely a product of science, but I, I was also afraid of having a kid and I was afraid of what that would do to my career. And you have a book I noticed on your website around this, the house has been, so let me ask you this question, all of this, to say, you've now have twins that are 12 years old. You have a thriving career. What has been the biggest joy for you in having these twins and also having your career, but, but mostly the joy around being a parent, what's been the biggest joy for you so far?
Kim (08:23):
You know, I will say I was, I was telling my son this the other day, when, when I became a parent, I found that I would experience these intense bursts of joy, like the whole body tingling joy every single day, the kind of feeling before I had kids that I would only have like once every decade. So I mean, I would also feel intense moments of frustration that I perhaps didn't have as often, but it is really parenthood for me has been a real joy and parent her. It was really important for me to defer my parenthood that if I had had kids, when I was younger, I was, I was neither, psychologically nor financially ready for them earlier in my career. And so one of the talks that I have given that I wish I should do it more often, but it's called don't succumb to fertility panic.
Kim (09:20):
Like if you want to become a parent and you're, as I was when I was 35 single and, and no, no not, not dating anyone who I was going to have kids. I was dating someone, but I wasn't going to have kids with him. I knew that much, at least, and I was panicking. And I just, if I could do one, if I could undo one sense of panic, it would be that fertility time bomb, panic, I would just undo it because I know a lot of people who wound up having kids with the wrong person, marrying the wrong person because they were in this state of panic. But I don't know, actually, anyone who wanted to become a parent who didn't become, I mean, maybe they didn't have their own biological children, but they who didn't become a parent. So don't don't succumb the fertility panic. That's my, that's my tale.
Erin (10:12):
Hey, let's, let's say that again. Okay. And let's put that on. This is going to be a tweetable. Don't succumb to fertility panic.
Kim (10:23):
Yeah. And I will say there's one other thing. I, part of the reason, part of the reason that I waited, well, most, mostly I waited too long cause I needed, I needed a partner. This was not some people do it alone and do it great alone. I needed a partner for this parenthood endeavor and it took me a while to find him. But I will also say that I, part of the reason that I was reluctant to start a family earlier in my life was that there's this notion out there that you have to choose between great work and being a great parent. And that is just. It, I have done by far the best work of my life after my kids were born. So imagine what I could have done if I'd had them sooner. So I think I think you've got the notion that you have to choose between you know, work adds to your life and your life adds to your work. And it's all one big happy thing together. And they're better off together. I think this false dichotomy is something we need to eliminate also.
Erin (11:25):
Yes. Kim I'm doing praise hands. Yes. It's truly, that is so wonderful to hear. And I think a lot of people listening, a lot of women in particular listening children enhance our lives. My, one of my favorite things that you just said was that feeling of intense joy that you get, that's almost that comes around almost daily with, I only have a two year old, but just that feeling when I'm not, like you said, frustrated till get out, I feel so much love and intense happiness around that. And you might truly think I felt the same way. I was a geriatric pregnancy, as they say, and you know, you feel that, but at the same time, I also felt like I needed to have some life experience, some work experience and I wouldn't change a thing about it. So when I read that and radical candor, I've said, I cannot wait to talk to you about that. If I'm, I love the answer that you just gave. So, oh, kudos. Yes, yes, yes. So I also want to know this question. I have, this is a bit of burning question for me. You are in so many podcasts, you've been interviewed so many times, but if you could flip it, what is your favorite podcast to actually binge?
Kim (12:44):
You know, that is a great question. And I'm going to answer it. I'm not quite going to answer it. However, because my favorite thing to do is to binge books on audible. I love, I love podcasts. Don't get me wrong here. I am on the podcast. And there's something really cool about hearing people speak off the cuff and, and I think unique about it. But I write books and, and I love to read books. Part of the reason why I write books is that I love to read books. And one of the things that I have found, especially since having children and it's hard to find time to read is that listening to books allows me to listen. There's no, there's no dead time in my life anymore. If I'm waiting in line somewhere, I just turn on my book. If I'm stuck in traffic, I just turn on my book.
Kim (13:35):
If I'm doing the dishes, if I'm weeding out in the yard, I am also listening to a book and I believe by the way, in doing one thing at a time, but when you have twins, you got to do some multitasking also. And I really, there is something so special about going deep in the another person's head. And when you read a book that, I mean for radical candor, it took me, it took me four years. I thought I was going to write radical candor in three months, but it took me four years. I was wrong. And when someone writes a book, they really go deep on something and they bring up a gift, they bring up a Pearl of great price. And so I, what I love to do when I have time to binge is just to listen to great books and sometimes I'll finish it and I'll just listen to it all over again, right away. I just, I just read a book or listen to a book called after on. And I was, I just finished it this morning, actually. And I was so sad when it was done. I'm like, why do I need to be sad? I can just listen to it again and I'll get even more out of it. So that's my favorite thing to listen to a great book and then listen to it again as soon as it's done.
Erin (14:50):
I love that after on. Okay. That was going to be my up question. What is your favorite book that you've read in the past year?
Kim (14:57):
Yeah, there's so many great books. I mean, in the past year, gosh, th the, some of us is great. Uh, and also a swim and a pond in the rain is great. Uh, but after on, if you are in tech, especially if you're in tech, you must read after on it's so good.
Erin (15:18):
Ah, all right. Add it to the show notes here. Linking it up. I love that. So, all right. Well, let me ask you this too. This, this is a great segue because you are such an accomplished author and it's so interesting. You just said radical candor took you four years to write. That is, I mean, that is just as it should be, because there's so much wisdom in that book. You can tell that you really poured your heart into that. Your mind, you went deep, we went deep into your head and that book, I mean, that was,
Kim (15:52):
I went deep into my, the hardest thing about writing is getting into your head. The hardest thing of course is getting back out. And for that we need drum roll, please. Feedback.
Erin (16:06):
Yes, we do. Well, okay. I want to stick with this writing process really quick. How do you get into the mindset to write what's your writing? Do you have a ritual that you do, or can you just plop down, open up your computer and write anywhere? What does that look like for you?
Kim (16:23):
So in an ideal world, which this is not, what I do is never quite what happens, but in an ideal world, what I try to do is I'll spend the first hour of the light. I wake up. I do not look at my email. I do not look at social media. I start writing for an hour, and then I feed my kids, breakfast, my husband and I have a chat and then I'll write for another hour and a half, and then I'll take a walk and then I'll take a meeting maybe for about half an hour, then another hour and a half chunk. Then maybe I eat some lunch. And then if I'm not too, if I'm not too exhausted after that, I'll have another couple of hour and a half chunks interspersed with with some, you know, some kind of phone call.
Kim (17:11):
So in an ideal world, I, I sort of block off and hold sacrosanct four hour and a half long chunks of time in the day. And I learned the first time, I've also written three published novels. And, and when I wrote those, I was re I was, I had these four hour chunks. And I realized that most of that time was wasted, that I can only concentrate for about an hour and a half at a time. And so the key thing is, is to have those hour and a half long chunks of time throughout the day, every day, and then to take the weekend off. I really, uh, I believe in time off the weekend is if you want to create, you have to recreate.
Erin (17:56):
Oh yeah. Okay. Say that again. I love that!
Kim (18:00):
If you want to create, you've got to recreate.
Erin (18:03):
That. Is it okay? This is so interesting. I'm always interested in how, because everybody has their process. So that makes a lot of sense to me. And it's interesting. You evaluated what wasn't working before and went into those hour and a half chunks, but I'm so glad you found this hour and a half chunks because you brought us radical candor. You brought us just work, which just came out in March of 2021. So feedback is what w obviously we're here to talk about today and you and I talked before we hit record. There's so many things at play right now in today's working world. Most people are still working from home. Some are going into the office a few days a week. We've got people in different time zones. We've the world has changed so much in the past year and a half. And radical candor is all about kind and clear feedback, avoiding obnoxious aggression, manipulative insincerity ruin is empathy. But if I were to ask you, this is, this is some improv right here, cam. Okay. All right. If I were to ask you to sum up radical candor in just three words, what would it be?
Kim (19:19):
Caring and challenging.
Erin (19:24):
Yes, she did. Yes, she did. Okay. Now let me, okay. Now in more than 3.
Kim (19:29):
I'm going to give you another one. You could also sum it up as love and truth.
Erin (19:35):
Oh, I love, I love and find truth and that okay. Yes. Love and truth. Yes. Okay. So let me ask you this. In more than three words, which I know you've you have done this before, or you just, if you just improvise that Kim, it is spot on why is radical candor so important, especially in today's hybrid workforce? Why is it so important?
Kim (20:02):
So in order, in order to work well together, we need to trust one another and we can't trust one another without radical candor. And I want to, I want to be clear. Yes, it is love and truth or caring and challenging at the same time. But it's also, I think very often when people think radical candor, they think a boss giving feedback to an employee. And I want to, I want to say that it must start with a boss, soliciting feedback, not giving it don't dish it out before you prove you can take it. And and this is so, so important. There's an order of operations to radical candor. And it's got to start with soliciting feedback. And especially if you have power or authority in your organization, you've got to learn how to lay it down so that people will tell you what they're really thinking.
Kim (20:55):
And this is vitally important in order to creating an environment of what Amy Evanson calls, psychological safety. And, you know, as or if you want to quote someone different. My, my son's baseball coach, who's wonderful man says to one of the kids on the team you can't do, right. If you don't know what you're doing wrong, or if you won't admit what you're doing wrong. And that is why radical candor is important at all times, but now more than ever, because, because when we're not in person, it's a little bit harder to build relationships, to establish trust. And and so if we all, if, if, if your listeners can do only one thing as a result of this podcast, if you can think about who you're going to solicit feedback from when you're going to do it and how you're going to do it, like, what's the question you're going to use, and it can't be, do you have any feedback for me?
Kim (21:56):
Because then you're wasting your breath. I can already tell you the answer. Oh, no, everything's fine. You've got to think of a way to ask it. That will really persuade the other person to tell you something that you're doing wrong. Now that's the first part soliciting it, but you also have to give it. And another, I think this is probably a problem of the stories I tell with radical candor, but it's not all about criticism. It's praise is a huge part of radical candor. And so when you're, when you're giving radical candor, you want to start by soliciting it, not giving it. And then when you're giving it, you want to make sure that you're spending, you know, sort of you're focusing on the good stuff. I don't want to recommend the sandwich. The, say something nice. Say something critical, say something nice, but you want to focus on the good stuff you want to make sure that you're taking the time to give voice to what you really and genuinely appreciate about working with a person.
Kim (22:52):
Now, I want to go back because this happens all the time. If you are the, if you are, especially if you're the boss, if you're a person or a person of some authority in the world, you want to make sure you're soliciting criticism, not soliciting praise. The other day, I told someone who I really like and care about, but who I thought had made a big mistake. I said to them you know, I want to talk to you about a problem I see. And a couple of things happened. The first thing that happened was that that person sent me their chief of staff to hear it and want to hear it directly. And that was remarked. It's like saying, you know, my dentist tells me I've got a, I've got a cavity. And so I send my chief of staff to get her.
Kim (23:45):
That's not gonna work. You know? So that was the, and then the chief of staff said, well, tell me whether it's praise or criticism, because my, you know, my boss believes in five times as much praise or criticism. I'm not, yes. If your boss is giving it, but not when they're soliciting it. In fact as you know, we, we started off with with a story about Cheryl, to whom who is a person who I'm very grateful to personally, who taught me a lot about radical candor. But I learned the other day that the, the conference room between Cheryl and Zach says, good news only, or only good news or something like that. Like that's a disaster that, that may explain a lot. The name of, I know it's a joke, but you know what words matter? And that is that, that is a poorly named conference room.
Erin (24:38):
That is well, okay. First of all, I love these stories. And I want to, I want to ask you a question about a question, if you will, because I love this notion of you have to solicit first as a leader, we have so many leaders listening to the show. So many people who are either right now, currently leading teams, they are an emerging leader, hoping to lead teams. So if you are going to solicit that criticism from your team, what, what's an example of a question that you can use to solicit that criticism.
Kim (25:13):
So I will share with you the question that, that my coach recommended to me, but I will caveat this by saying you you've got to make sure it sounds like you that's rule number one with your question. So the question that, that, that Fred Kaufman recommended that I use, which I adopted was what could I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me. And in fact, in radical candor, I misphrased it a little bit. I got some feedback. You write a book about feedback. You're going to get some, I think in the book it says, is there anything I could do? And that's a, that's not an ideal way to ask it because somebody could say, oh no, there's nothing. You know, you, you want to ask a question that can't be answered with a yes or a no, but so what could I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me, but it's got to sound like you.
Kim (26:05):
So I was working with Krista quarrels when she was CEO of open table. And she said to me, you know, I like that question for you, but I could never imagine those words coming out of my mouth. The question I like to ask is, tell me why I'm wrong. Okay. That's fine too. So one thing I would recommend, if everyone listening can just pause what they're doing, pull out a piece of paper and a pencil like old school, not your phone, but a piece of paper and a pencil and write down what question you could imagine. What are the words you can imagine were coming out of your mouth? Cause it's got to sound like you. Now there's a second part to your question, which is it's got to work for the other person. So I started this company, radical candor with Jason Rosoff and after Jason and I had been working together for a couple of months, he made a confession to me. He said, Kim, I hate your go-to questions.
Kim (27:01):
So it was working and that it at least got him to tell me what he really thought he said for me, that question is so open-ended, I don't know what to say. So if you could narrow it down a little bit for me. So like, ask me about the last meeting we were in together, or tell me what you're working on, not doing, and I'll point it out to you. So it's got to work for you. It's got to work for the other person. And so that's step number one is coming up with your, with your go-to question. Now there's a second. There's actually four steps. So the second, the second step is to realize that no matter how good your question is, the person still doesn't want to answer that question. No one, except children. If you have them want to give you feedback, your kids are eager to give you all the feedback in the world. But yeah, all the feedback. It's one of their many, one of their many joyous traits. But, but most of the rest of the world doesn't really does not want to give you feedback. And so you've got to embrace the discomfort. There's no question. That is good enough to eliminate that discomfort. So simple tactic from embracing the discomfort, just close your mouth and count to six. Oh, and you jumped in and started. No one can endure six seconds.
Erin (28:24):
Okay. Okay. You're right. You're right. I was, I was thinking of loud as you said this, but I do as a, as a person thinking about doing this, it is hard.
Kim (28:34):
Yeah. Six seconds of silence is a really long time. So if you can manage to keep your mouth shut for six seconds, this person will probably tell you something. So now come step number three. You've dragged this poor soul out on a conversational limb they never wanted to go on. Now. It is your turn to make sure that you're managing your own natural defensiveness. So you want to make sure step number three is listen with the intent to understand, not to respond. And even though you just ask someone for feedback, when you get it, you're probably going to feel a little bit defensive. And this doesn't mean you're a lesser mortal or shut down the fee just means you're a human being. So give yourself a little grace. It's okay that you feel defensive, but it's not okay to show your defensiveness. So you, you need to make sure that you, that you are managing your, you can't manage someone else's emotions when you're batting above average, you can manage your own.
Kim (29:38):
So you're managing your own defensiveness. So simple tip here is just to ask a followup question. So I'll give you an example. My daughter at the breakfast table, the other day said to me, kind of a propos of nothing, mom, I wish you weren't the radical candor lady and instantly this, this wave of guilt washed over me. And I thought, oh no, I'm spending too much time working. She wants more time with me. And then I thought, well, I better make sure I understand what she really means. And so I said, well, who do you wish I were? And she said, I wish you were the lady who minded her own business.
Kim (30:18):
It was very different. When I asked that follow-up question, then what I immediately thought. So you want to make sure that you're really open to the feedback and that you're trying to understand what the other person said last, but not least. Step number four, you got to reward the candor. When you get it. When a person, when someone gives you some, some radically candid criticism, it is a gift and it is also a risk or risky gift for them to give you. And if you don't reward it, they will never take that risk again. So if you agree with the feedback, you want to make sure that you fix the problem and then go back and you told them, tell them what you did to fix the problem and find out whether you went far enough, maybe you over-corrected. And in fact, a good rule of thumb for responding to feedback is to try to over-correct.
Kim (31:12):
So some, some other feedback I got from Cheryl Sandberg, I said, I moved too fast. And she said to me, you know, if you don't, until someone tells you that you're moving too slow, you haven't, you haven't addressed this feedback. And so try to over-correct when you're, when you're rewarding the candor by fixing the problem. But there's another situation, which is maybe you disagree with the feedback and what do you do then? And I, this is really important to think about because very often, one of the reasons that people don't solicit feedback is that they're, they don't know what to do when they disagree with it. So here's what you do when you disagree. Here's how to reward the candor. When you disagree with the candor, look for that overlap the person, maybe you disagree with 90% of what the person said, but you probably don't disagree with 100%.
Kim (32:04):
So look for that five or 10% of what the person said that you can agree with, and then say, as for the rest of it, I want to think about it. And I want to get back to you and then do get back to them. I think it's so tempting to feel like disagreement poses a risk to a relationship, and it can a badly had disagreement. It certainly can, but what poses, even more risk to our relationship is ignoring feedback when you get it. And so you've got to, you've got to, if you disagree with it, you can't just say, oh, thank you for the feedback. And you know, cause the other person is going to hear F you. They're not going to hear those words because that's what it feels like when you take the risk to give someone some feedback and then they brush it off with a thank you for the feedback. So you, if you disagree with it, then what you want to do is you want to explain to them in a respectful way, why you disagree and you can't argue endlessly, especially at work at a certain point, you've got to sort of listen, challenge commit. And one of you, you got to take someone's someone's pointed, you know, someone's recommendation, but you, at least, if you have explained why you disagree, then your, your relationship isn't damaged.
Erin (33:26):
Okay. Can I tell you that, that question was not an actual question that I was going to ask you, but I am so glad I asked you that question because I'm seeing so many parallels to what you just said to improv. Okay. So many parallels, for example, number three, step three, manage your natural defensiveness. When you talk about, and you talked about this in the book, radical candor, but when you listen to understand, not respond, that is a fundamental rule of the stage that applies. So that applies. So applicably look at what I did there. That applies so well to feedback, to business, to radical candor. Because on stage as improvisers, we have to be able to listen. We can't just respond. We can't just respond to the very first thing that somebody says, because otherwise people know that we're not really listening. And, and step three of this here, if you're not listening and you're not necessarily taking in that feedback, you can't get to step four, which is fantastic, which I love what you said there. That it's a gift and it is a risk to reward the candor. Because as you know, cause I know that, which we don't, we didn't tell the improve it! Audience here that you, you are very well versed at improv. So fun fact, everyone
Kim (34:52):
I have, I have one of the most fun things I ever did in my whole career was, was to partner with the second city. Uh with second city works and create a set, sort of a, a radical candor sitcom, a workplace comedy it's it's five short, 10 minute episodes and explains what radical candor is, what radical candor isn't and how to put it into practice. And, and mostly how we all get it wrong all the time. That's where, of course the comedy that getting it right, is not nearly as funny as getting it wrong. And that by the way is like, it's, this is something I learned from Anne Libera who wrote she's a professor of comedy and she wrote a great book. And she said, the evolutionary purpose of humor is to help us notice what we were unaware of, what we had before been unaware of. So I think, I think improv is a great way to practice radical candor because it is it's important to practice because it doesn't, it doesn't come naturally. In fact, it a big, huge part of radical candor is, is overcoming our instincts because our instincts often will lead us to do exactly the wrong thing.
Erin (36:08):
How does it, well, there's your love and truth right there. And we always, there it is. And there's there's truth in comedy and the, and the, the truth will always set you free as what we say on stage. And I love that the same applies with feedback and I'm seeing so, so, so many things that you're saying here are just first and foremost, we love second city works. We love the people behind there. Hello, Becca bearish. We're just going to give her a little
Erin (36:37):
But wanted to say too, just going back to this whole idea, that rewarding candor, when you give it is a gift, because that person has taken a risk. As you know, and the improv world, we say that you cannot fail that there are no mistakes, only gifts. So by giving someone that feedback, you are giving them the gift of correction without getting feedback on radical candor, which is a book about feedback. You couldn't have gone back and changed those, the question that you have, your, your personal question that you asked to solicit it, right? So yeah,
Kim (37:15):
And by, by giving the person that, this is really important too, by giving the person that feedback. If you're giving it as a gift, you may, you may have to recognize that that, that you gave the person the wrong gift that, you know, there's always every holiday season. I used to w my team at Google, we would all bring in the gift that that said, gee, I wish you were a different person. We all get those sometimes. Right? And we can have a laugh about it, cause it's upsetting to get that. And so a really important thing about radical candor when you're giving it is to remember that it's a dialogue not a monologue and part of the gift may be that the person corrects your misunderstanding of the situation. And you gotta be open to that as well.
Erin (38:04):
Oh, I love it. It's a dialogue, not a monologue. Okay. We're going to have so many tweets. So many canvas from the show. It's just crazy. So, okay. Well, I have so many questions that I didn't get to because I want to kind of hone in on this improv piece and how it's so applicable with radical candor and how, what you do really can be best utilized by experiencing it by doing it, which is essentially what improv is it's learning by doing. Right. So let me ask you just one, one question, Kim question, and I'm, I'm, I'm curious to know the answer. So you, you talk a lot in the book about praising in public criticizing in private. I love the spinach in the teeth analogy, which I'm going to say to our listeners read the book. Okay. So let me just get into it.
Kim (38:57):
You can listen to it also.
Erin (38:59):
Yes. Hey, and are you, you are the narrator on audible is that
Kim (39:03):
I got some feedback on the first edition, on the first edition, I was the narrator and I got a lot of feedback that the sound of my voice is grading and annoying to an awful lot of people.
Erin (39:15):
Kim I find that I'm going to disagree with that?
Kim (39:18):
So you have a choice. You can read the first edition and you get me reading it, or you can read, you can listen to the second edition and a professional reader reads it. And I liked the professional reader better than my own voice. I'll admit.
Erin (39:31):
I have to admit. And I, this is a nasal Twain situation that we have going on here in this voice and my own voice. You know, it's confused. I was half Southern half Midwestern here. We are all
Kim (39:43):
Southern. I grew up in Memphis.
Erin (39:45):
That's right. I remember, well, I know the bird dog story. Where's where we all started. We're full circle. Let me, let me ask you the question. Cause I, I'm curious to know this answer. If you were to describe one of the best situations in which you have personally used, and I know you've got so many, but the best, the time where you thought to yourself, I used all of the tools and the radical candor tool belt. If it was work, if it was personal, could you describe once, does one situation stick out to you?
Kim (40:17):
I'm going to tell you a story about a moment when I was criticized at work. So when I received it, not when I gave it and it, and it really helped me. And I think if everyone can think about that moment in their careers, when someone told them something that really hurt a little stung a little bit in the moment, but stood them in good stead for the next 10, 15, 20 years, then it will make it much easier to be radically candid. So telling stories, telling yourself stories and telling other people, these stories is helpful. So here's, here's my story. This happened shortly, shortly after I joined Google, I had to give a presentation about how the AdSense business was doing to the founders and the CEO of the company. And I walked into the room and there was Sergey bread. One of the founders on an elliptical trainer wearing a bright blue spandex unitards and Toshi, not really what I was expecting to see in the room and there.
Kim (41:19):
And the other corner of the room was Eric Schmidt, who was CEO at the time. And he was doing his email and his brain was so focused on the machine. It was like, it was like his brain was really was the machine. So probably like you in such a situation, I felt a little bit nervous. How in the world was I supposed to get these people's attention? Luckily for me, the AdSense business was on fire. And when I said, how many new ad sense customers we had added over the last couple of weeks, Eric almost fell off his chair. Why did you say this is incredible? Do you need more marketing dollars? Do you need more engineering resources? Yes. And you know, so, so now I feel like I'm a genius. I've gotten everything I wanted out of this meeting. And I walked out out of the room.
Kim (42:05):
I walked past my boss who was, who was Sheryl Sandberg. And I'm expecting a high five, a pat on the back. And by the way, I'm going to pause for a moment in this story and come back to that good news. Only like I learned so much from Cheryl about radical candor. I wish she would be soliciting it more at this period in time. But anyway, so I'm expecting a high five, a pat on the back. And instead Cheryl says to me, why don't you walk back to my office with me? And I thought, oh wow. I screwed something up. And I'm sure I'm about to hear about it. And Cheryl began the conversation, not by offering me a sandwich, but by telling me, and really seeming demeaning about the things that I had done well in the meeting. But of course, all I wanted to hear about was what I had done to screw up.
Kim (42:53):
And eventually Cheryl said to me, you said, I'm a lot in there. Were you aware of it? And with this, I made this brush off gesture with my hand. Cause if that was all I had done wrong, who really cared? I said, yeah, I know it's a verbal tick, no big deal. Really. And then Cheryl said to me, I know this great speech coach. I bet Google would pay for it. Would you like an introduction? And once again, I made this brush off gesture with my hand. I said, no, I'm busy. I don't have time for a speech coach. Then you hear about all those new customers. And then she stopped. She looked me right in the eye and she said, I can tell when you do that thing with your hand, I'm going to have to be a lot more direct with you. When you say every third word, it makes you sound stupid.
Kim (43:38):
Now she's got my full attention. And some people might say it was mean of her to say that I sounded stupid. But in fact it was the kindest thing that you could have done for me at that moment in my career. Because if she hadn't used just those words with me and crucially, she would never have used those words with other people on her team who are perhaps better listeners than I was. But if she hadn't used just those words with me, I never would have gotten to see the speech coach. And I wouldn't have learned that she was not exaggerating. I literally said every third word, and this was news to me because I had been giving presentations my whole career. I had raised money for two different startups, giving presentations. I thought I was pretty good at it. And it was almost like I suddenly realized I had been marching through my whole career with a diet and hunk of spinach in between my teeth.
Kim (44:29):
And no one had had the common courtesy to tell me it was there. And so that really made me think, what was it about Cheryl that made it so seemingly easy for her to tell me, but also even more interestingly, why had no one else told me. And, and as I really thought about it and you know, I was at Google and thinking like engineers, think in terms of vectors it, I really, I realized it really boiled down to two simple things, it's care personally and challenge directly. So if you imagine a two by two framework on the vertical axis is care. Personally on the horizontal axis is challenged directly. And that's really what it boiled down to. I knew that Cheryl cared about me, not just as an employee, but as a human being. When, when my father was diagnosed with cancer and I was devastated, she could tell I was devastated.
Kim (45:24):
And she said, look, your team is going to write your coverage plan. You go get on a plane, fly back to Memphis, be with your family. That's where you don't even count it as vacation. That what, where you need to be right now is with your family. Your team has your back. That's what great teams do for one another. And that kind of, that was the kind of thing that Cheryl did, not just for me, but for everyone who worked directly with her, she couldn't of course do it for all 5,000 people in her organization. But if you worked directly with her, you knew beyond a shadow of a doubt that, that she had your back. And you also knew that she was getting, she was going to challenge you directly. If you did something that you needed to know about, she was going to tell you about it. Even if it stung a little bit in the moment, because she was never going to let her concern for your short-term feelings, get in the way of her, willingness to tell you the things you needed to know to grow and succeed in your career. So that's it care personally challenged directly. There is all of life's hardest problems can be boiled down to a good two by two framework. And there is your radical candor.
Erin (46:35):
They're in as, and we got the spinach in the teeth and allergy, and there I am. That is magical. It's you know, and it is so true. I think a lot of those times in those moments they sting, but you're sitting here today. How many years ago was that?
Kim (46:51):
A long time. That was probably 2006, 2005. Yeah, it was a long time ago. Now
Erin (47:00):
That's the power of it, right? That in that moment, it stung. But as you said, you guess they ended the crap out of it and it changed. It changed the course of where you are. And look, look at your now cam, look at you now. I mean, this is, this is unbelievable. And I truly feel like this book as a leader for me change the way that I show up. I have always thought about myself as being radically candid until I read the book. And I'm like, no girl, you are a people, pleaser, ruinous, empathy,
Kim (47:38):
Both you and me. That's why I wrote the book because I struggled with it. I still, I mean, even now I still struggle with it.
Erin (47:47):
Oh, well, it's so magical. And if you're listening today and you haven't read it, please read it also, please get a copy of her new book. Just work, get done fast and fair because I cannot wait. That's on my, that is on my list and it should I, should I listen to the audible? Are you, is there a round, one of the audible of Kim? Should I get,
Kim (48:06):
I did not listening to the feedback of the previous. Okay. We got a professional reader to read it.
Erin (48:13):
You can let me know because I'm an audible person too. I'm loving audible now. So these, this, this is going on my audible cue. It's going to be next. And I know that the audience that we have here at improve it, it's just so honored to have had you on this show. You gave so much great advice and we have so many tangible things that we're going to take away. Let me ask you this. How can the improve it audience find you what's the best way to find Kim Scott
Kim (48:42):
At Kimble Scott on Twitter, or you can go to our website, radical candor.com or just work together.com and spoiler. You know, I got feedback on the subtitle of just work. And so we changed the news. There's now breaking news. There's a new sub title, which is how to root out bias, prejudice, and bullying to create a kick-ass culture of inclusion. So when you think just work, not only productivity, but also,
Erin (49:14):
Okay, you heard it here. Is it first on the improvement podcast? Probably not.
Kim (49:18):
I mentioned it on another podcast. It's on Amazon, the new subtitles, but I will warn you if you buy the book, you'll, you'll still get the one for limited period of time. You'll still get the one that says, get done fast and fair. Cause we haven't sold all
Erin (49:37):
All right. That's and that, you know what that is, Kim? It's fair. That's fair. So we're going to, but I wanted to tell you, first of all, Kim, I want to publicly praise you for your efforts, the work you're putting into the world. And here it is. If I have any feedback for Kim Scott, is that the world needs more you okay? That's it.
Kim (49:57):
Jeff made eight long, lonely years of writing worthwhile.
Erin (50:03):
Well, there's a lot of hour and a half in this writing. I am. So you really, the, the process behind it is so fascinating to me because when you open a book, I always tell my two year old son that that is somebody's life. Like even a children's books like that is somebody's blood, sweat, tears, livelihoods that they have poured hours of time into. So we always, you know, even though he's two or like be kind to books, but I really I'm just, just so happy that you have the voice that you have, that you're putting out the work, because I need you, the leaders who listened to this show need you. So thank you so much for giving us your voice for giving us your wisdom and your books and just being here today, Kim, I really appreciate it.
Kim (50:46):
Well, thank you. And thank you for teaching people, how to improve it because you got to practice radical candor and improv is by far the best way to practice your radical.
Erin (50:56):
You heard it here again, exclusive another exclusive this happening. Oh my gosh. All right, Ken. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Erin (51:12):
Okay. Are you buzzing? Just as I was coming off this interview? I mean, what, what a show, what a show. I am so thrilled to have had her as a guest. So here's what I want you to take away. These are the steps that we are going to take to solicit that feedback as leaders. We want to solicit that criticism first, we've got to make sure that we are soliciting it before we actually give it. All right. So like Kim said, you've got to make sure it sounds like you, so what can I do or stop doing that would make it easier to work with me. That was Kim's question. I want you to think of the question that is going to spark joy for you when you have to solicit feedback. And I said sparked joy, because you're going to be saying this question a lot.
Erin (52:03):
You're going to get comfortable using it and repeating it. So I want you to pull out a piece of paper and pencil and write down. What is your question? What is the question that is going to work for you to solicit feedback? And also, as she mentioned, she also have to make it work for the other person. So as she mentioned, her coworker, Jason or her co-founder, Jason said, you know, your question's too broad, narrow it down for me. So find your question and then make sure when you're giving that question to solicit the feedback you are taking in consideration who you're talking to step two, I want you to embrace that discomfort. We talk so much on this show about getting comfortable with the uncomfortable sit in that six seconds of silence. I couldn't even do it as you heard. So really sit in that six seconds of silence.
Erin (52:59):
After you ask your question, that person is going to give you what you need to hear. Number three, listen, to understand, not to respond, manage your natural defensiveness as Kim says, and then step four, reward the candor when you perceive it back. All right? So remember they're giving you that gift of candor. It's a risk for them to give it to you. And if you disagree with the feedback, look for the percentage of what you agree with. Think about it because the worst thing you can do is ignore the feedback when you get it. Okay? And explain why you disagree. This is a dialogue, not a monologue. Like Kim said, you heard her story about how radical candor affected her the most with Sheryl Sandberg. What a cool story. The spinach in the teeth analogy came out there. But I want to encourage you. If you haven't read the book, radical candor, pick it up from a library, read it, get it on audible.
Erin (54:03):
It's just such a good book. So improve it family. I am so proud of you for showing up for listening. I want you to take today and really put it to use into your own life, into your own own career, as a leader and how you're leading teams receive that feedback. Then give that feedback. I'm so happy you here today. Thank you for joining us. Keep failing. Keep trying, keep improving because the world needs that special. It that only you can break. See you next time. Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to improve it. I am so happy you along for the ride. If you enjoyed this show, head on over to iTunes to leave us a five star review and subscribe to the show. So you never miss an episode. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Now, if you're really feeling today's show and you've improved it even just a little bit, please take a screenshot and tag me at keeping it real deal on Instagram and share it in your stories. I'll see you next week, but I want to leave you with this thought, what did you improve today and how will that help your future successful self? Think about it. I am rooting for you and the world needs that special. It only you can bring see you next time.