Episode 95: Building a Kick A$$ Culture of Inclusivity with Kim Scott + Trier Bryant
Are you constantly trying to figure out how to build an inclusive culture within your team? Are you looking for guidance on what practical and tactical tools and frameworks you can use to practice this in your workplace and disrupt bias?
If this sounds like you – then improve it! fam – We. Have. An. Episode. For. You.
Today we have not one, but TWO guests – Kim Scott, author of Just Work and Radical Candor, and Trier Bryant, expert and leader in diversity, equity and inclusion initiatives!
Grab your notebook, iPad, tablet, or whatever you take notes on, because this episode is full of practical nuggets that you can implement today. Let’s get to improvin’ it!
About the Guests:
Kim Scott is the author of Just Work and Radical Candor. She co-founded two companies that help organizations put the ideas in her books into practice. Kim was a CEO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter, and other tech companies. Kim previously held leadership roles at Apple and Google. Earlier in her career Kim managed a pediatric clinic in Kosovo and started a diamond-cutting factory in Moscow.
Trier Bryant is Co-Founder and CEO of the company Just Work, which helps organizations and individuals build more equitable workplaces. She’s previously held leadership roles at Astra, Twitter, Goldman Sachs, and proudly served in the Air Force as a Captain leading engineering teams while spearheading diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives. She has been featured as an influential DEI practitioner by several publications and outlets from USA Today to CNN and SXSW.
Show Links:
Just Work Book
Get your hybrid hype handout here!
Send us a voice message here!
Did today’s episode resonate with you? Please leave us a review!
Connect with Kim and Trier:
Website
Just Work: https://www.justworktogether.com/
LinkedIn
Kim Scott: @Kim Scott
Trier Bryant @Trier Bryant
Just Work @Just Work
Twitter
Kim Scott: @kimballscott
Trier Bryant: @trier
Just Work: @justworkbook
Connect with Erin Diehl:
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
“I love this podcast and I love Erin!!”
If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing this podcast! This helps Erin support more people – just like you – move toward the leader you want to be. Click here, click listen on Apple Podcasts, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with 5 stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let Erin know what you loved most about the episode! Also, if you haven’t done so already, subscribe to the podcast. That way you won’t miss any juicy episodes! Thanks in advance, improve it! Fam :)
Episode 95 Transcription
Erin (00:01):
Oh, improve it! Today you are in for a treat. I cannot even tell you how excited I am to have these two women on the show. I'm so excited. I literally have been thinking about this interview for the past couple weeks, knowing they were coming on the show. I just feel so lucky that we get to chat and that you, my improve it! Family, get to hear this amazing conversation. So first and foremost if you have little ones running around, give them some earmuffs or pop in your earbuds because there's a little adult language, but let me tell you it is worth it. Oh my God. Is it worth it? So let's start by introducing Kim. Kim was on the show episode 80 of this podcast, and she is the author of just work, how to root out bias, prejudice, and bullying to build a kick culture of inclusivity, as well as radical candor. Be a kick boss without losing your humanity. She co-founded two companies that help organizations put the ideas in her books into practice.
Erin (01:07):
Kim was the CEO coach at Dropbox, Qualtrics, Twitter, and other tech companies. And previously had leadership roles at apple and Google, just small companies right now, Trier Bryant. Oh, we get introduced to Trier today. Lucky us Trier is co-founder and CEO of just work. She's previously held leadership roles at Astra Twitter, Goldman Sachs, and proudly served as a combat veteran in the air force as a captain leading engineering teams while spearheading diversity equity and inclusion initiatives. She's been featured as an influential EI practitioner by several publications and outlets from USA today to CNN cheers and air force academy, graduate and enjoy spending time with their family who live by the motto. Good enough is that we're gonna talk about that in the show. This show is packed. So first and foremost, if you haven't gotten the book, just work, get it. Now we're linking to that in the show notes.
Erin (02:09):
It is every leader needs to read this book. It is so good. We're gonna talk about the book and get into it in today's show. There is so much going on from purple flags, which you'll see in here. We talk about so many different ways that we just work is so important. Post radical candor. The book that we had Kim on the show for before, you're gonna hear about the definitions, these very simple definitions of bias, prejudice, and bullying. We're gonna tell you some ways and that people remain silent and they remain silent. And then we're also gonna give you several suggestions on how to interrupt bias on your team. The show is so good, so, so good. So stay tuned. Now, if you haven't yet gotten your hybrid hype handout, it is a free downloadable PDF that we give to you to help you hybrid hype your team help you through this time that we're working remotely.
Erin (03:09):
Mostly get that it's in the show notes. Just a quick reminder for you. I'm gonna stop talking. I can't wait for you to hear this interview. Let's get to this amazing conversation with Kim Scott and Trier Bryant. Here we go. Are you a leader or change maker inside of your business organization or corporation? Are you looking for new innovative ways to drive morale through the roof? Are you looking for fun and exciting ice breakers, team building exercises and activities that will foster team growth, friendships, loyalty, and completely transform your organization from the inside out. Have you been searching for a fun and unique way to create change instead of the same old draw, boring leadership books and nice breakers that aren't actually worth? Hi, I'm Erin Diehl, business improv, entertainer failfluencer. And professional Zoombie who is ready to help you improve it. My mission in life is to help you develop teams and leaders through play improv and experiential learning. And this podcast, we will deep down into professional development team building effective communication, networking, presentation, skills, leadership training, how to think more quickly on your feet and everything in between. We have helped everyone from fortune 500 companies to small mom and pop shops transform their business, their leadership, and their people through play. So grab your chicken hat. We are about to have some fun, welcome to improve it! The podcast.
Erin (04:59):
Kim, Trier, welcome to the improve it podcast. Welcome Kim. Welcome trier. This is my fir I'm gonna be honest with you both. This is my first double interview of life of, of this podcast. So I'm excited because I'm gonna have to go. Hi Kim. Hi trier. So hi Kim.
Kim (05:20):
Hi. How are you? It's great to be back
Erin (05:23):
And welcome back. I know we're so thrilled to have you and Trier. Welcome.
Trier (05:28):
Thanks Erin. We're excited to be here.
Erin (05:31):
I am honestly so pumped for today's show. I know the improve it! Audience is going to take so much value from this conversation. We've met Kim before Trier. We to get to know you, we're gonna do a fun little thing that we do in all of our improv workshops called five facts. Okay? So it has a little, it has a little pregame cheer to it that goes like this five facts, five facts, five facts, five facts, five facts. And then I'm gonna start, I'll start with you, Kim, cuz I feel like this might be like a re a repeat of some of the facts we already know, but maybe give us something new.
Kim (06:05):
I'm gonna give you some new facts. Yeah.
Erin (06:07):
Give us five facts about yourself that we couldn't find anywhere in your books, bio, LinkedIn profile anywhere, and I'll count them for you. So let's go. One!
Kim (06:18):
One fact is that my first job was hiring a bunch of Russian diamond cutters in a field outside of Moscow, over a bottle of vodka. There you go, for $6 a month. It was awesome. My third actually I'm can I tell the truth? I just conflated my first job was not actually hiring the diamond cutters. My first job was research for which I was paid $6 a month. I'm easily confused. Third fact I'm easily confused. Fourth fact fourth fact, I once on a business trip threw up on my dinner plate. True fact. It OK. It was awesome. And it was preceded by this, you know, the telltale tugging under your chin. And I, I kept thinking I am not the kind person who at the dinner table and then boom, anytime you think those words, I am not the kinda person who you're about to be that person.
Erin (07:28):
That's it. That's it. OK. Wait, that was four. I need a five
Kim (07:33):
Fifth, Fifth fact. I was voted by my teachers to be the ideal St. Mary's girl at my school. There you go.
Erin (07:45):
Okay. I've I need like a three hour podcast episode for unpacking all of these facts, but I'm gonna say this, that when you said the throw up, I automatically like my, my, you
Kim (07:55):
Got it. You felt
Erin (07:57):
I
Kim (07:57):
Was there.
Erin (07:58):
That was right there. I felt it. Okay. Trier. I am. I'm ready. Are you ready?
Trier (08:03):
Let's do it.
Erin (08:05):
All right. Here we go. First fact,
Trier (08:06):
First fact I was born in Triar Germany, which is where my name comes from. Second fact, English is my third language. First was German. Second was Flemish that they speak in the Southern part of Belgium. Third fact is it takes two things to get into any of the service academies. It basically takes an appointment, which is the air force academy saying you got in. We want you and then need a nomination, which can either come from the president vice president or a congressional representative that says you're are going to represent the nation, the state or your district at the air force academy. I got the appointment because they were like, yes, you can come. You got in, but I did not get a nomination. And so we had to go and chase and find someone to give me a nomination. Otherwise I wasn't gonna go. A lot of people actually don't know that was that three
Erin (08:58):
That's three, but I love I get this time. We need three hours. Okay. Keep going.
Trier (09:03):
Four. When I was a cadet at the air force academy I actually got to go on an incentive ride and an F 15. So the pilot was in the front. I sat in the second seater behind them where the navigator are typically sits and they do this to like get cadets, to like wanna be pilots. But I believe that planes are for vacations, not for work. And so I had no desire to be a pilot, but I'm getting in the cockpit and the pilot goes, cadet Bryant. You better not throw up in my plane and my jet. And I was like, all right, sir, whatever. And so I didn't throw up, but I did pee on myself. I'm,
Erin (09:39):
I'm loving how real we are on this show. So. Good, good, good. All right. Number five. And
Trier (09:43):
Then I would just say number five, I don't know how to cook and I have no desire to, and I spend more money on Uber eats than my, than I like to and my accountant makes fun of me.
Erin (09:58):
Let's all be best friends because I peed myself last week. I almost threw up in my mouth and I hate cooking. So
Trier (10:05):
I hate cooking, I burn water.
Kim (10:09):
Let's call this bodily fluids! Bodily fluid podcast.
Erin (10:16):
But it, you know what? These are facts that I'm now glad that I know. So I'm glad I asked and I feel like, you know what, there's, there's common threads here. There's common threads. And I also hate I hate cooking so much that when I was looking for a, we moved recently, I had, I asked the realtor. I was like, is there grub hub here? Like does, how, what does the Grub hub reach?
Trier (10:41):
Erin? That is a very good question. Cause like, does Uber work and does Uber eats or some food delivery because I've actually stayed in places where it didn't.
Erin (10:50):
Thank you.
Trier (10:51):
So it's a fair question.
Erin (10:53):
And I, I'm not, I'm not happy about it when that happens. Okay. I'm with you so much here. This is, this is already going great. So I am little, this is, this is it. This is the show. No, we have so much good stuff to talk about. And I'm just thrilled. We've had Kim on the show episode, 80 of the improve it! Podcast, we were talking about radical candor and feedback and Trier, We are so happy to have you, the two of you collaborated to write this book, just work, how to root out bias, prejudice, and bullying, and to build a kick culture of inclusivity. Trier. Let me go to you. How did this collaboration come to be?
Trier (11:31):
So can we just first talk about that's not the actual original title of the book, right? Yes. And I actually hate it. Okay. So the original title of the book was just work, get shit done fast and fair. But did you know that Amazon will not let you promote books with the word shit in it? I did not. Although you can with ask. So for those of you who are ever gonna write a book in the future, that's something that you should know.
Erin (11:57):
That's a note I'm writing down
Trier (11:59):
And then people were leaving these like mean comments. Like I thought this was a book about productivity. It's a book about bias and it's not, you know, so we were like, okay, like Kim was like, we need to change the title of the book cause Kim wrote the book. But I really love the original title, but that's just another little fun fact about it is that this is the improved Amazon approval to promote the book title of the book. But how did we come to partner? So Kim wrote this amazing book, just work, original title, get shit done, fast and fair. And it is about workplace injustice. It is about bias, prejudice and bullying. And how do we uproot that and prevent those things from occurring within the workplace. And she was looking, she was gonna, you know, start another company alongside of the book like she did with radical candor.
Trier (12:45):
She was looking for a co-founder CEO. So we were introduced and I was like, Kim, I don't have time to start a company. I was a chief people officer at the rocket company in the middle of COVID, 80% of my employees had to touch the rocket to do their work. I've got a COVID outbreak at Alaska. Like it was a lot. Right. And I was like, Kim, I'll read the book and give you some feedback. I was like, but I, I'm not gonna be able to start a company. Erin, I read the book and I was like, Kim organizations and leaders needed this yesterday. Like what can we do to get framework and as many organizations into as many people as possible. Why I have been a diversity equity and inclusion practitioner for over 15 years. But if anyone asks Erin I'm 25 yes. And yes. Thank you.
Erin (13:28):
That was my next question though.
Trier (13:29):
The thing is, the thing is, is that we do a lot of talking in this space of the problems. People can talk about the problems in lots of different ways, but we're in this really unique moment because of what happened with the social unrest. Following the murder of George Floyd in 20, where people actually wanna do better, but they don't know what to do. And so we need to give people practical and tactical tools and frameworks that they can, regardless of your level, regardless of if you're a leader, you manage people or industry that you can put these things into practice in your workplace and disrupt bias, prevent prejudice from occurring and provide consequences to bullies so that we don't have them in the workplace either because they're a distraction. And that is how Kim and I came to partner to do this because she wrote this incredible book and my background in diversity, equity inclusion, and being a people, HR leader of like, how do you actually introduce this and scale this within organization so that we can do better
Erin (14:29):
Trier. Honestly, when I read your bio, I was floored. I mean, the, you have had the most impressive career. The world needs the work that you're doing. And I'm so grateful this collaboration happened. I'm so grateful.
Trier (14:44):
You and me both
Erin (14:47):
So happy, so happy. Well, okay. So Kim radical candor is a term that we use so much now. Like it's a, it's a buzzword. It's not, I don't even wanna call it a buzzword. It's just a common term. You have you read the book radical candor. Oh yes. Right. So especially in the corporate world, which is where the improve it! Audience lives breathes. So let me ask you this question. Why will as writing this book just work so important, post radical candor.
Kim (15:17):
You know, if you write a book about feedback, you're gonna get a lot of it. And indeed I did. And shortly after radical candor came out, I was at a tech company in San Francisco giving a radical Candor talk. And the CEO of that company had been a colleague of mine for the better part of a decade, a person who I respect and like enormously and one of two, few black women CEOs in tech. And after I gave the radical Candor talk, she pulled me aside and she said, Kim, I'm excited to roll out radical Candor I think it's gonna help me be all the kind of culture I want, but I gotta tell you it's much harder for me to roll it out than it is for you to put it in a practice than it is for you. And then she went on to explain to me that as soon as she would offer anyone, even the most compassionate criticism, that she would get slimed with the angry black woman stereotype.
Kim (16:11):
And I knew this was true. And as soon as she said it to me, I had three, four revelations really at the same time, the first was that I had not been the kind of colleague that I imagined myself to be, that I want to be, that I aspire to be. I had failed to notice the extent to which she had had to show up unfailingly pleasant and cheerful, and every single meeting we had ever been in together. And believe me in that period of time, she had what to be ticked off about at work, just like we all do, but she wasn't allowed to show it. And I had failed to stand up to that injustice. The second thing that I realized was that I had been sort of in denial about the kinds of things that had happened to me as a white woman in the workplace.
Kim (16:57):
I never wanted to think of myself as, as a victim cause our society has such a weird attitude towards, towards victims. But in fact, you know, all kinds of stuff had happened to me that I had sort of pretended hadn't happened. So that was the second thing. Now the third thing, even less than wanting to think of myself as a victim, that I wanna think of myself as a perpetrator. And yet I had been guilty of a bias, prejudice and bullying too often in my career. And, and I, I had also been sort of in denial about the kinds of things I had done as, as a white woman in, in the workplace the, the mistakes that I had made. And the fourth thing I realized was that as a leader, I had failed to create the kind of environments in which bias, prejudice bullying wouldn't get in the way of a team's ability to just work. This is one of the things that was so puzzling to me about the feedback that we got about the book. How could you say, it's not about productivity, you cannot be productive in a, in a, in an environment that is characterized by bias, prejudice or bullying.
Trier (18:06):
Very true facts,
Erin (18:07):
Facts, hashtag facts. Okay. This is so good. And I'm again, I know that our audience is just listening, nodding, I'm listening and nodding. This book needed to come into existence. And I wanna start off with the very beginning of the book. Kim, you talk about your experience in Russia in the 1990s. And, you know, it might be a bit difficult for readers to read. And I know as an author that this was most, this was most likely the point, right? To get everybody comfortable with the uncomfortable, which is a term that we in the world of improv use all the time, let's get comfortable with the uncomfortable let's create this safe space. So tri for our audience today, we, what are some ways leaders can encourage everyone on their team to get comfortable discussing bias, prejudice, and bullying. And with that, I know in the book, there's simple definitions of all of these terms. So could you, what are, why is that so important? And could you define those for us?
Trier (19:06):
Well, that is the key thing, right? Erin is that need shared norms and shared vocabulary. So the shared vocabulary that we use is how we define the root causes of workplace injustice is bias, prejudice, bullying, simple definitions. Bias is not meaning it prejudice is meaning it. And bullying is just being mean like how easy is that? Right. Okay. So in this framework, how you can name it. And what's so interesting, Erin is that we've, we've gotten into all these organizations and we've done these keynotes and we we've introduced this framework. And then afterwards people are like, oh, I never thought that that was prejudice. Or I never thought that I was being bullying because you didn't know how to name it. And once you name it, you can solve for it. But if you can't, then you're just kind of, of in this state of like, it doesn't feel good, but I don't really know what it is.
Trier (19:54):
Erin, if you would've asked me before I was introduced to this framework and before I had Kim's book, Trey, have you ever been bullied in your career? I mean, Erin, you were in my background, like you spent a little time with me, are you kidding? Have I ever been bullied? Like I imagine you come from me, you come for me, I'm a come for you. Right? Like of course I haven't been bullied in my career. And then Kim tells me bullying is just being mean. And when you read it and she tells these really great stories, cuz Kim believes in the power of, of storytelling, right? You're like, wow, I really have been bullied, but you know what, Erin, I never stood up for myself. I never reacted. I never responded because I didn't identify or name it in that way. So what leaders need to do is that when we can have shared language and then the next thing in the framework is then what do you do when you find yourself in these situations, the shared norms of how we respond. It's amazing. What can, what can happen when you arm your people and your teams with those two very simple tools that each like, all that comes from the framework,
Erin (20:53):
The framework is. So it really is so simple. And also just saying this, it just, you know, you're bringing up stories in my own mind of my own work. And I'm gonna tell you, there wasn't an incident years ago before improve it where I was bully. And I called the person a bully and she has young children and she was so taken aback. And then she got to the root of why she was doing it and it, and she said, I'm just doing this because, and I said, interesting, cuz she was bullying. I'll just tell you, she was bullying me about some of the clothes that I wore to wear. I'm a little extra, right? Like I have, like I have on a fur vest right now. Right. And so I told her, I said, this is, I feel like you're bullet, you're a closed bully.
Erin (21:35):
And she says, you know what? You're right. She's like my clothes aren't fitting. And I absolutely have been taking that out on you in a different way. And I was like, wow, here we go. Thank you. And to have that simple definition is just being mean what bias, the simple definitions of bias and prejudice. This is what, as you were talking about the social unrest, this is what companies and, and the great resignation, this is what people are looking for as those simple definitions and a place where those things are spoken about. And they feel like an easy topic to discuss versus is this, like, I don't wanna talk about that at work. Right. And you
Trier (22:13):
Know, and you know, what's so great about your example, Erin, Erin, is that like, so we talk about statements. So we talk about when you're faced in a situation with bias, you can use an I statement an I statement and invite someone in to let them know how you're feeling. Right. Prejudice. You use an it statement and its statement focuses a on the prejudice, but bullying, we advise and say, Hey, let's use a U statement. And so in that example of bullying, you know, another way you could have said is like, Hey, what's going on with you? What's going on with you? That you would feel necessary to say that to me, that doesn't feel good. Like that's bullying. And then she, yeah. And her response was, you know what, this is actually what's going on. Oftentimes it's just some that question or just putting it back on them to make them reflect on themselves. Right? Like you can't talk to me like that or what's going on with you. So using those statements very, very simple. And I'm not gonna lie. Even though this framework is really about the workplace. I have you, some of this in my personal relationships,
Erin (23:07):
I would literally, it just bleeds in into it. Right. It's so easy. I mean, and you actually just took a question right off, right out of my mouth, because that was my next question for you was how do you define those statements? And I love that. And it's so interesting to think about when we think, and Kim, I wanna ask you this, when those things are taking place, right. When people are being bias, prejudice and bully, or, and they've like you said, Kim, you've done it. We've all had these things happen to us, right? Like we've all been biased. We've all been prejudice. And we've all at some point in our lives, we've all we are human. Right. We've all done things that make people not feel great. Right. So why are you talk about upstanders and bystanders? Right. But I wanna talk about the people who remain silent in the face of bias, prejudice, and bullying. What are, what are some of the common reasons why people remain silent when they, these things happen?
Kim (24:06):
I think a, a big part of the reason is you, you don't know what to say. You haven't taken a good improv class. Right. That's it. And right. So, so also I think in the, in the, in the face of, of bullying, very often, people will, will say, oh, you know, that's just so and so that's just so and so they're not really so bad, but, but what the other day I tweeted good people do bad things all the time. And if they really are good people, they wanna know about those good things that they do. And so let's like, let's just eliminate the phrase, oh, he's a good guy. Or she's a good, you know, she a good person. And, and, and, and say to ourselves, if they're such a good person, they would want to know so that they can address this stuff.
Kim (24:55):
So let's think also about what to say when you dunno what to say and, and offer some, you know, let's double click on that, on that language that, that trio just suggested, because I think another part of the problem is that you're not sure often whether it's bias, prejudice or bullying, or you're a little bit, you're not sure how to respond. You confuse the responses. So for example, my daughter was getting bullied. This is a, a, a personal life, not a workplace example. She was in third grade, she was getting bullied on the, on the playground. And I suggested to her as adults often do in these situations to use an eye statement, I was confused. And I said, tell this kid, I feel sad when you, blah, blah, blah. And she banged her fist on the table. And she said, mom, they are trying to make me feel sad. Why would I tell them they succeeded? I thought, you know, that is a really good point. And so you wanna make sure that you, you pay attention to your gut. What, what do you think this is? And then you respond now, you may be wrong. Maybe it's not bullying, but that's okay. You've given this person some feedback that it sure feels like bullying. Maybe it wasn't biased. And one, one of the reasons why I often don't respond, whether I'm the upstander or the person who's harmed,
Kim (26:17):
As I'm not sure for. So one of the examples I give in the book is I was giving a, talk, a radical candor, talk at a tech conference, which in which I was like, there were a hundred people and three him and one of very few women. And I was about to get on stage. I was about to go on stage and this man comes running up to me. And he's like, where, where is there a safety pin? I've popped the button off my shirt. You know, this is my problem to solve. And I knew that he was doing it cuz he was confusing me for a staffer. Even though the staffers were all wearing bright yellow t-shirts and perhaps 30 years younger than I am. But anyway, all he could see was his need and my gender. And so I, but I assumed that he didn't mean it.
Kim (27:00):
And so I could have said, I'm not staffing the people in the yellow t-shirts could help you. But I didn't say that in part, and this is not a good excuse. I'm just sort of explaining what ha I think, cause stuff happens like this to a lot of us. It would've been better if I had said that, I didn't say that in part, cause I was, I was concerned like what if he actually is prejudice? What if I say, I'm not a staffer? And he says, oh, you're the radical candor lady. You're I don't believe in all that soft, feminine, you know, leadership, BS and unlikely that would happen. But it has happened to me more than once before. Right. So, so that could have ha it could have been prejudice, not just by unconscious bias, a very conscious prejudice or maybe, maybe he could have bullied me next and said, oh, don't get your panties in a wa well, again, unlikely, but you know, raise of hand women on, on the, has that happened to you?
Kim (27:56):
Yes, it's happened more than once. And so I'm, I'm much more angry when it's prejudice or bullying. And I didn't wanna go on stage. Royaling mad. And as the person harmed, I think I had a, a right to choose my response. But as a leader, in that situation, I actually had an obligation to say something, because if I don't say something, then this guy's gonna go and give all the people who are the conference of poor performance rating, you know? So, so, so I think we it's useful to be aware of what our role is and, and what our obligation to respond is
Erin (28:35):
That is a fantastic example. Very proud of you that's you know, you, no,
Kim (28:41):
Don't proud of me. I didn't say anything. I did the wrong thing.
Erin (28:45):
I'm proud of you for processing it now because you're processing how it went down. And I think at the same time, so let me ask you this. Did you go when you went on stage though, were you, were you still upset? How, how were you on stage once you got on stage?
Kim (28:58):
No, no, I didn't part of my coping mechanism. And, and by the way, if you're the person harmed, do you have a right to employ this coping back mechanism? Part of my coping mechanism was just to pre pretend it hadn't happened and to ignore the whole thing. So it didn't rattle me. But in, in retrospect I was hardly walking. The radical can talk by not saying anything was I. And so later I felt bad about it. And I think this is one of those things that's worth thinking about over time. If you get in the habit, if you default to silence, as I too often did in my career, then you lose a sense of agency. And, and that is actually very destructive.
Erin (29:38):
Hmm. I'll tell you too, after, you know, reading your book, re reading your books, but after the radical candor talk and after you and I had our last talk, there will be some moments where literally I'm sitting there and I'm like, no radical candor go. And I'll just force myself to say something when typically my, I am silent, that is my go to anti, you know, ruin, sympathy, all those things. But I appreciate this answer. And I wanna go to TRIA because I wanna think about what Kim said, but also kind of think about it in terms of incidents of people standing up to bias and prejudice and bullying. And this came up in the book. They're rare. So, so why do you think, like incidents of people standing up to bias, prejudice and bullying are rare or are so rare?
Trier (30:26):
Yep. We call them upstanders and we need more upstanders. We need more people that are just bystanders, you know, intervening and moving into action. Look, I don't know, cause I'm not that person. And I, I don't, I think that because as a black woman, Erin, I have been the person harmed so frequently. Yeah. That now at this point in my career, sometimes I don't necessarily call it out. Not because I'm afraid to, but I don't even notice it more, unfortunately like it is just, I'm just so accustomed to the bias and sometimes the prejudice, however, I'm very conscious of it for other people. And I get very protective of anyone if I know that harm is being caused. And I think a lot of times, like we forget that inclusion has to be inclusive and too often we have these conversations and it's man woman, black, white, you know, there's there's so we have so many different identities and intersections.
Trier (31:35):
And as long as there's a majority, there's always gonna be a minority. And it's hard to be when you're on that side and it doesn't always feel good. But we do need more bystanders. I mean, we do need more upstanders bystanders that intervene and maybe it's because they don't know what to do. Maybe they don't know what to say. Maybe it's uncomfortable. Maybe there's a power dynamic in play. But the thing is, is that more harm is done by staying silent because there is complacency in your silence, right? And we cannot be complicit. We cannot be complacent and we have to intervene and it, and we need more folks that are, you know, it's one thing for, you know, Kim tells a story where she, you know she, they were giving a, they were giving a presentation to a, a couple hundred folks. And it was her and a team of four other people. And the, the person introduced them, introduced all the men. And then for her took her hand and like kissed it kind of licked it. Right. I'm not doing a story. Kim tells this, the point is, is that in front of 500 people, this man like basically licked Kim's hand and no one said anything
Erin (32:44):
Back to bodily fluids point yes. Back point
Trier (32:47):
Bodily
Kim (32:47):
Fluid, bodily fluids, back
Trier (32:49):
To that. And so I remember when Kim had shared the story with me and I was thinking how many times something had happened, where I knew it, it wasn't right. And I might have said something, but the was on me cuz I'm the person harmed that like, oh yeah, she's gonna say something. But it also says a lot to that person. Who's being harmed that if no one else says anything, now it's kind of like you're being gas lit. Right. Are you gaslighting me? Like no one else thought that was weird. No, one's gonna say anything. And so it shouldn't always be on that person. Now I will tell you one of the greatest things about out, you know, working with Kim is before I even get it out of my mouth to say something, Erin, typically on a podcast, Kim is gonna jump in and be an upstander.
Trier (33:28):
Like Kim is a constant upstander, a hundred percent of the time, right? Like people throw out question. Well question Kim will. So a podcast this podcast, or throw out a question while it was like, well Trey, like as a black person, what do you think about this? And Kim was like, what are you talking about? Asking tr as a black person, us as white people need to be having this conversation. You need to be asking me this conversation. Right? So it's just like, we need more upstanders, like stand up and say something and it may be uncomfortable, lean into the discomfort. It's not gonna hurt you. And when people say it's hard, it's that much harder being that person who's causing who's who's being harmed. And it is that much harder for the person who's from the underrepresented group that deals with this constantly every day. So do your part,
Erin (34:12):
Do your part up standards, want it up standards? Want, I, I love that's. I love that so much. Thank you for sharing that too. And I, this book, I mean, I literally feel like I, again, I want a three hour podcast. We're not gonna keep it there, but I have, I have some, some questions I wanna get to because this is so interesting. There were several suggestions especially chapter five. Okay. Which I loved Kim, you offer several suggestions that people could use to interrupt bias on their teams. And as you know, there's a ton of leaders listening to this show, emerging leaders, people who want to do well and show up for their teams in the best way. So could you give the improved audience, some suggestions they could use to interrupt bias on their teams?
Kim (34:59):
Absolutely. I think that one of the most important things actually that leaders can do is to create a culture where this is not just accepted, but expected and demanded where, where you don't get to the end of a meeting and no bias has been interrupted. In fact, we're gonna do this on this podcast before we're done, you're gonna point out something I've one of you we'll point out something that I'd said or done that's biased. So there's sort of three parts to bias disruptors. And remember bias is a pattern. And we as human beings are pattern makers, but that doesn't mean we are the helpless victims of our patterns. We can change the patterns when the patterns become destructive. In fact, we must change the patterns when the patterns become destructive. So here's what you can do as a leader to, to make this accepted.
Kim (35:48):
Or you can do it bottoms up. Doesn't have to be top down, sit down with your team and figure out what are the words or phrase what's the word or phrase that you all wanna use to disrupt bias in the moment. So trier suggested, and I love it. A purple flag. And, and I have this purple flag here in honor of trio suggestion and a purple. It's a friendly purple flag. It's not a red flag. It's not a yellow flag. And whenever one of us says, or does something bias us, sometimes we wave it on ourself ourselves. Sometimes we wave it on each other. Other teams we've worked with have said, yo, another team throws up a peace sign. So when someone says peace, they, they know that their bias has been pointed out to them. And other teams have said, I don't think you meant that the way it sounded.
Kim (36:38):
Other teams say bias, alert the words matter, but I don't wanna give a script because the best words are the words that your team will actually use. So that's point number one point number two is you need to work with the people whose biases are being interrupted to know how to respond in the moment. Cause I don't know about you all, but I feel deeply ashamed when, when I, when I, my biases are pointed out to me and I usually do not respond at my best when I'm feeling deeply ashamed, I usually respond poorly. And so it's useful to have kind of an expected, not exactly script, but set of things to fall back on. So sometimes I know what I've done wrong. And then it's my job to say, thanks for pointing it out. I'm working on that. Tell me if I do it again.
Kim (37:26):
And, but other times I don't know what I've done wrong. And now I'm doubly ashamed. I'm ashamed because I've harmed someone and I'm ashamed cuz I'm ignorant. I don't, I don't, you know, I don't know in that case I say something along the lines of thank you for pointing it out. I'm not quite sure what I did. Can you tell me after the meeting? And so that is a way to just make sure that you're teaching everybody, that we all have these moments and that we're helping one another, we're point them out in the spirit of helping one another improve you can't do, right. If you don't know what you're doing wrong. So that's, it's a gift that we're giving each other. So that's second thing. And then the third thing is just a shared commitment. We're gonna point it out in every meeting cause something biased gets said or done. And every meeting every day at every company everywhere. And it does again, it doesn't mean that it's inevitable. It just means we've got, we've got what to learn,
Erin (38:27):
That's it. And when you know better, you do better. And if you don't do better, do figure it out, figure it out. Yeah. And I love wait trier, there's a quote that I loved. Let me find this and your buyout. Good enough. Isn't
Trier (38:41):
Good enough. Isn't that is my that's our family model. My grandfather he had a sign over the bar. Good enough. Isn't and that's just where our family's work ethic comes from. And it's like, can you, do you know how many times people are just like, ah, it's good enough. Oh, I cringe Erin. I cringe it's. So I hear when people say that, you know,
Erin (39:03):
Business as a recovering perfectionist
Trier (39:06):
Oh, you're recovering good for you. I'm
Erin (39:09):
I'm recovering. I'm now a fail Flur. That's what I am. I, yeah, I, I understand that and, but I, you know, it was
Trier (39:19):
Impressive.
Erin (39:20):
Well, thank you. Thank you. I mean, there are, there are things that I always have like a very, we're going down a different path, but I'm just, I was just, I was loving this quote and I wanted to know where that came from. So I I'm glad that we cleared that up. And I also know like for both of you, the work that you're doing is just as you were talking, Kim, I'm sitting here nodding my head thinking, yes. Like I've experienced that shame. I've experienced feeling that ignorance I've experienced all of the things that every single human being feels, but you're actually putting into tangible, actionable steps that people can follow. So I love this purple fly. I love the piece. I'm loving that each company has their own thing that speaks to them, but it actually helps point it out. And I I've been listening, Kim, I haven't had a purple flag moment yet. So it could happen. I don't know. I'll
Kim (40:10):
Tell you. Here's true confession. So I worked with Bree Harper. Who's a, a critical race strategist to make sure that I was not using language that I in, in ways I hadn't intended in the book. And she pointed out to me, a couple of things happened. First of all, she pointed out to me, eight words I tend to use that needed some further examination. And my initial response was defense. I was like, oh my God, there's no safe word in the English language. I mean, I hate to confess that, but it was my initial. And, and then I caught myself and, and I said, okay, that's eight words. There's 200,000 words. That's where like quantifying your bias can be helpful to put things a perspective. And then I thought about, and I realized she was exactly right about each of, of those words. And one of the words was, see, I tend to use sloppy site metaphors.
Kim (41:03):
I see when I'm, what I mean is I notice, or I understand. And that is, that is problematic because it sort of implies that that people who are blind, don't see, don't understand, don't notice. And of course they do notice and they do understand very often more clearly than, than, than those of us wi with vision. And so I, I thought I had cleared that up. Cause a cuz I understood and B, because another one of the editors who's working on on the book is blind and I care deeply about him and didn't want to use harmful language. And bef right before I sent the book into my editor, I did a search on the word C and I had used sloppy site metaphors 90 and a 350 page book. So it, this takes a lot of, we have to be persistent with ourselves and with each other polite, but persistent.
Erin (42:05):
That is, I, I totally appreciate that. And I appreciate you sharing that because I think a lot of people listening can relate. I had a guest on the show who was blind and I said something about C and I wanted to kick myself. And it just, you know, and it's one of those things where you're talking and you really need to think about these eight words and I'd be curious what the other eight words are. But I, I, I don't have time for the eight words right now because I have a very important question for you. But Kim, I'm very curious on these other eight words.
Kim (42:34):
All right. Trie, I can tell from her eyes that she has something important to say
Erin (42:39):
What tri say it.
Trier (42:41):
Okay. So Erin, have you had a chance to see our, our see, I just, okay. Purple flag. Have you had a chance to, to watch our Ted talk?
Erin (42:49):
No, I have
Trier (42:50):
Not. Or hear a Ted talk. So we have a Ted talk. It just hit a million views. It's great. Okay. However, the biggest, the biggest criticism that we've got on that Ted talk is we use an example of like blind spot as like a purple flag in there. And people are going, we're going crazy in the comments on like YouTube or something. And they were like, I just can't say anything now. Now I can't say a blind spot. Like all these other words, Erin, do you know how many words there are in the English language? Right. And it's just like, well,
Erin (43:21):
Ken told us.
Trier (43:22):
Yeah. Right. So, so like to me, and I've had this conversation with other folks, like there's a CEO that, you know, I was coaching with one of our clients and he gave someone on his team feedback of doing, he was like, Hey, you did awesome on that. You absolutely killed it. And the guy took him aside afterwards and said, Hey, my family comes from a part of the world where there's a genocide going on right now. I don't really wanna kill anything. I would appreciate it if you could just like, I don't find that as a compliment, the CEO got mad and he was like, I just can't say anything. All I wanna do was give him a compliment because he did so great. And I said, if he's doing so great and he told you, there's one word that he would just prefer for you not to say and telling him that he does a good job.
Trier (44:02):
If I were you, I would just find another word. So he can just keep doing his job. Because every time you say that you are now introducing this burden where he has to focus on that. Right? And so when people wanna push back on these words, again, we all have our little things. And ultimately we wanna be in the workplace where we can do our best work. And if you just changing your language for one word of replacing it with something else is going to make it easier for that person to do their work, do their best work and show up as who they are in a more comfortable and inclusive place. Is it really that hard?
Erin (44:35):
Yeah. Just change the word change. I love that trier.
Trier (44:38):
It's something so small
Erin (44:40):
Change the word. I love this so much because there's so many correlations. Kim tr wait, Triar, I've never asked you this. Have you ever done improv before?
Trier (44:50):
You know, I've only done the whole, like who,
Erin (44:53):
OK.
Trier (44:53):
Thing. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes. Yes.
Erin (44:57):
Or are you talking about zip, zip up?
Trier (44:59):
Oh, zip. That, is that what it's too whoosh. Zip. Yeah. But that thing, you know what I'm
Erin (45:03):
Talking about. Okay. It is. Let me tell you why I love it as an art form because it makes people feel what we're trying to accomplish here. It makes people feel heard because a good improv scene allows people to have to listen and react to the last thing that is said. It makes people empathize with others because as you're creating these scenes, you're having to really lean into the person on the other side of that scene and hear what they're saying. So that empathy is a involved. And when we are talking about these word choices at work, I mean talk, talking about things like C or blind spot or kill or pronouns, right? These things make the other person on the receiving end feel important. And that's all that matters is when people show up, they like, they have this place of belonging. If we can just do that, if every, if people can read this book and take an improv class the world
Kim (46:00):
Would be, and us to come roll out all our good ideas at your company, then the world would be a better place,
Erin (46:06):
Better place. And I I'm, I love what you've brought up because it really puts it into context. You give tangible tools. You know, what I do is very experiential. What you're doing is also experiential. You're giving tangible things for people to see and feel and do, and it just matters so much. So I'm so grateful for you to collaborating and putting this out into the world. I think the world needs to hear this message. And I wanna ask you about this question. So I'll start with you trier. We say it, improve it. Your, it is whatever you feel like you are put here to do, right? So when we say improve it, it's a pen on words, cuz it could, you can leave or take the E right. Can you see the sign? So, but you, it is the thing that you're, you are put here to do. So what would you say your it is
Trier (46:59):
My, it is to help leaders and organizations take better care of their people. You take care of your people, your people take care of the mission,
Erin (47:08):
That's it? That's it pun intended. That's it. All right? What is your it?
Kim (47:16):
My, it is to help people love their work and love each other.
Erin (47:23):
I love that. I love that. I'm so grateful that you both came on this show and I want you to tell the improvement fam, where they could find you. If they wanna learn more, how they can hire you, tell them all the things either of you tell us,
Trier (47:37):
Well, you can get the book on Amazon anywhere where you go and get your books. Also your local bookstores let's support our local bookstores, just work. And then we, our website just work together com and you can find more information on, you know, how we partner and collaborate with organizations. Some of our current and previous clients you know, we'd love to come in and talk to your organization, do a keynote half day workshop, anything or engage with leaders. We work a lot with executive teams in one, on one with leaders as well. But think it's really critical to, you know, again, having that shared vocabulary and shared norms on how to identify workplace injustice and how to move past it. And a lot of amazing things can happen within your culture and your workplace for your people. Again, take care of your people and your people will take care of the mission.
Kim (48:25):
And if you want constant daily reminders, you can fall us at just work book or you can follow me at Kimball. Scott, I will offer reminders about just work and a whole host of other random things. Yeah.
Trier (48:39):
Kim tweets, Kim's really big on social media. I do not. I don't like the trolls and the haters, so I'm not really a social media person.
Erin (48:46):
They are there. Well, we're gonna link all this in the show notes. Just wanna tell both of you first and foremost, you are two kick women who are making kick cultures of inclusivity, one organization, one book at a time. And everyone listening to the show, get your copy of just work. Thank you so much for being on the improvement podcast. Ladies, it is been a pleasure. Kim tri are so nice to meet you,
Trier (49:12):
Erin. Thank you so much. This has been great. Thank
Erin (49:15):
You.
Kim (49:16):
Thank you, Erin. We gonna do some improv and it,
Erin (49:20):
Yes. There's the, I was looking for. Thank you.
Erin (49:32):
Okay. Improve it fam. I am just blown away. I have a fan on me. I am blown away. This episode is so special. We talk about some of the most important things facing us as leaders in today's workforce. And not only did we talk about them, but Kim and are both gave us super tangible things that we can take away from today's show that we can put into motion today. So I wanna go back to the suggestions. Kim gave us on interrupting bias on your team. So freaking cool. Whenever you hear bias on your team. And of course we have to create it, an environment where people feel safe to talk about these things. If you hear some type of bias, Kim uses a purple flag. TRIA told me she uses a purple post-it take whatever symbol, make sense for you and your team and hold it up. So if somebody said you guys, instead of you, all which being from the south now I'm y'all is inclusive. All right? So thinking of biases that come up on the regular and actually calling attention to them is going to help us. What we said in the show
Speaker 6 (50:45):
Do better.
Erin (50:47):
Good enough is it as Trier's family says, right? So I want you to think of a symbol. They mentioned the purple flags, the peace signs, those things are easily available to us, right? Maybe it's a pen cuz everybody has a pin at their desk while you're on zoom. If you hold up a pen, you've said something bias. I want you to think of a symbol that you can put into motion for your team to make sure that we are getting rid of and interrupting this bias. So it's actually interrupting that helps us to do better, which helps us to get rid of this bias. Think of the thing that we're going to put in for yourself, for your team. I want you to write it down after today's show. And then I want you to talk to your team about it. That is your tangible next step from today's show.
Erin (51:38):
Find your item that is going to help you interrupt bias on your team. Explain how to do this with your team. So we hear something that is biased on zoom or in person we're gonna do a piece sign or we're gonna hold up this purple posted note or whatever it may be, and really think about how that conversation starts with your team, but put it into motion. And I want you to track this. I want you to see how this helps interrupt that bias and what it looks like for your team. Moving forward, maybe you try this for a week and you set the example with your team. Hey, we're gonna try this for one week. See how it feels because the week doesn't seem like that long, right? So you do it for a week and they're like, okay, we're gonna keep going with this for a month.
Erin (52:27):
And by that time, it just becomes something normal on your team that it just keeps going and going and going. This is something that a lot of people might have trepidation about because it is making them uncomfortable that they're biased. Remember that shame Kim talks about on the show, but it is so necessary and making everyone feel welcome and wanted, I know you can do this. I know you can do this. And that is really what this show, what just worked. The book improv all are all about, are making people feel included and seen and heard so that people can just work. Just work.
Erin (53:07):
I believe in you. I know you've got this. Keep failing, keep improving because the world needs that special. It that only you can bring. Thank you so much for today's conversation for joining me here today. It was so important. So important to me. I learn so much. I'm walking away with so much. I know and hope that you are too. I'll see you here next time. Bye. Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to improve it. I am so happy you are along for the ride. If you enjoyed this show, head on over to iTunes to leave us a of star review and subscribe to the show. So you never miss an episode. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Now, if you're really feeling today's show and you've improved it even just a little bit, please take a screenshot and tag me at keeping it real deal on Instagram and share it in your stories. I'll see you next week, but I, I wanna leave you with this thought, what did you improve today and how will that help your future successful self? Think about it. I am rooting for you and the world needs that special. It that only you can bring see you next time.