Episode 122: First Time Manager? How to Go from Peer to Manager in 5 Easy Steps with Ramona Shaw
Are you transitioning from an individual contributor role to a leadership position?
If yes, you’re in for a treat. If no, you're in for truth nuggets aplenty to add to your toolkit. In this episode, Erin brings on leadership coach, Ramona Shaw, to give you five EASY steps to go from peer to manager in no time!
In this episode, you will hear:
The biggest mistake first-time managers make
Key leadership habits to become a confident leader
Five tangible steps to make a seamless transition from individual contributor to leader
Show Links:
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About Ramona Shaw:
Studies have found that 40-60% of high-performing employees fail or underperform when appointed as managers within their first two years on the job. Since the vast majority of new managers never receive the leadership training essential for success in their role, high rates of failure result. Such situations are costly for both the managers who fear demotions or losing out on salary increases and promotions, as well as the organizations that lose talent and productivity. In response to this issue, Ramona Shaw runs The Leadership Accelerator, a 12-week program that coaches first-time managers to become confident, competent leaders who deliver results and who people love to work with. Through the program, she has helped hundreds of new managers at startups and leading companies — including Google, Twitch, Asana, Lionsgate, and Dropbox — successfully transition into leadership roles. Before becoming a leadership coach, Ramona worked at Partners Group, a global private markets firm with $127B in assets under management and over 1,500 professionals across 20 offices worldwide. At the firm, Ramona moved from a Junior Financial Analyst to Vice President in under six years.
Connect with Ramona Shaw:
Connect with Erin Diehl:
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
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Episode 122 Transcription
Erin (00:01):
Improve it! Peeps. Welcome to today's show. It is a juicy, tangible, get out your notebook and pen type show I'm talking about. We're giving you the goods. If you are a person who is switching from a peer, individual contributor-type role to a manager or leader, oh, stay tuned. Ramona Shaw is going to blow your mind. So here's how Ramona Shaw is improving it. Studies have found that 40 to 60% of high-performing employees fail or underperform when appointed as managers within their first two years on the job, such situations are costly for both the managers who fear demotions or losing out on salary increases in promotions as well as the organizations that lose talent and productivity. Now, this program that Ramona has created is called The Leadership Accelerator. It's a 12-week program that coaches first-time managers to become confident and competent leaders who deliver results and who people love to work with. Through this program, she's helped hundreds of new managers at startups and leading companies, including: Twitch, Asana (one of my favorite companies), Lionsgate, and Dropbox successfully transition into leadership roles. Now before becoming a leadership coach, Ramona worked at partners group, a global private markets firm with 127 billion (I said billion) in assets, under management and over 1,500 professionals across 20 offices worldwide. Now at this firm, Ramona moved from a junior financial analyst to vice president in under six years. That's crazy. So she's got the leadership to back it up, and she's gonna talk about how she transitioned from this role into her job. Now, with a leadership coach on the show, you are going to learn so much before we dive into just a high-level overview. I wanna remind you if you have not downloaded your hybrid hype guide, if you're leading a hybrid team, you want to get some tangible tips and tricks. Click on the link in the show notes. It is a PDF with about seven pages of tips for how to lead your team in this hybrid environment.
Erin (02:22):
Now, back to what you're gonna hear from Ramona. We're gonna talk about number one: what made her wanna become a leadership coach? What is the single biggest mistake for first-time managers? Some of the key leadership habits that new managers can start implementing to become more confident leaders - and that she's going to break down into five easy steps for you to go from peer to manager. And those steps are super, super tangible. So get your notebook, get your pens. Let's improve it with Ramona Shaw. Are you a leader or change maker inside of your business organization or corporation? Are you looking for new innovative ways to drive morale through the roof? Are you looking for fun and exciting icebreakers and team building exercises and activities that will foster team growth, friendships, loyalty, and completely transform your organization from the inside out? Have you been searching for a fun and unique way to create change instead of the same old dry, boring leadership books and ice breakers that aren't actually working?
Erin (03:29):
Hi, I'm Erin Diehl, business improv entertainer, failfluencer, and professional zoomie who is ready to help you improve it. My mission in life is to help you develop teams and leaders through play, improv, and experiential learning. In this podcast, we will deep dive into professional development team building, effective communication, networking, presentation skills, leadership training, how to think more quickly on your feet, and everything in between. We have helped everyone from fortune 500 companies to small mom and pop shops transform their business, their leadership, and their people through play. So grab your chicken hat. We are about to have some fun, welcome to improve it! the podcast. Ramona, sometimes I'll sing you into the show. I'm so happy to have you on the improve it! podcast. Welcome Ramona.
Ramona (04:39):
Thank you for having me. I’ll spare you with my singing. <Laugh>
Erin (04:43):
Listen. I know I should not do it. People are probably like, I'm turning this off right now. And also I'm only on my first cup of coffee. So like, you know, we, this is, this is early for you. You're early right now. Yes. Seven
Ramona (04:55):
I'm like halfway into my first cup, so,
Erin (04:57):
Okay. We'll do it.
Ramona (04:57):
I think we're good to go.
Erin (04:59):
Okay. They'll take a step. This is for the improvement piece.
Ramona (05:02):
Yeah. I have a San Francisco cup, too. Isn't that fun? Oh,
Erin (05:08):
The bay area, I love that. Okay. Well, I like to let our audience get to know the Ramona behind the bio. So this is a fun little game called Five Facts, super easy. I'm gonna do a little Diddy, more thinking. Sorry, everyone. Sorry. I'm not sorry. Okay. So it's gonna go like this five facts, five facts, five facts, five facts, five facts. And I want you to tell the improve it peeps five things about you that we couldn't find in your bio, your LinkedIn profile, your book, what are five hidden facts about Ramona that we need to know?
Ramona (05:44):
Okay. Okay. Let's try.
Erin (05:46):
Okay. Here's one.
Ramona (05:48):
So number one: I used, I was, not “I used to,” I was at one point a finger, a hand model. What? Right.
Erin (05:55):
That is like a dream I, I had in childhood. And then I had like a weird scar on my hand. Okay. Two, two
Ramona (06:00):
<Laugh> I used to be a synchronized swimmer. Why? And I think it's the most amazing sport ever. Yeah. I think it's, that is the best thing ever by far. Yeah, that was pretty cool. Okay. Three, three. You can see, I dunno, if you can see that I have three kids and then I decided I should probably get a puppy, too - because why not?
Erin (06:21):
Oh, my,
Ramona (06:22):
The more the merrier,
Erin (06:23):
Yeah, four
Ramona (06:27):
Four would be, oh, see, now we're getting into this. I haven't eaten meat since age 12. Wow.
Erin (06:39):
Okay. We're coming back. We're coming back and number five.
Ramona (06:43):
And number five is probably the coolest experience I've ever had was swimming with a family of dolphins that just came by on a surprise visit while scuba diving.
Erin (06:59):
Stop it now. Okay. These are facts that I feel like we needed to know.
Ramona (07:04):
<Laugh>
Erin (07:05):
Okay. I have some, I have a question. What kind of dog? What kind of puppy?
Ramona (07:08):
I have a Kava Poo, which is a King Charles Cavalier Poodle Mix. They're the best. Yeah.
Erin (07:13):
My toy poodle is right outside the door. That's the best Kava Poos are so cute.
Ramona (07:19):
Eh, they're the best? Yeah.
Erin (07:20):
White. Is it white and brown?
Ramona (07:23):
It was really kind of orangey brown. Like the dark, or, they call him red, actually. I should know the lingo. It...she's turning a little lighter. She's turning beige. Yeah.
Erin (07:35):
What's her name?
Ramona (07:36):
Her name is Coco.
Erin (07:38):
Coco.
Ramona (07:39):
Yeah.
Erin (07:40):
Okay. We needed that.
Ramona (07:41):
My chocolate and marshmallow
Erin (07:42):
<Laugh>. Yes. Okay. And also you were a synchronized swimmer, which I mean is amazing. You swam with dolphins. These are facts that we really needed and you have three children, which is the I, once I, you were on my radar, like you said, we, you and I were both researching each other, cuz you're on our show. I'm coming outta your show. And I was like, God, she does it all. And now you have three kids and a dog.
Ramona (08:05):
<Laugh>
Erin (08:05):
I'm impressed. I'm impressed, all the things, all of the things. So I'm glad we got to know these bits of information. Let's start today's show with an intention. What is one word that you wanna get out of today's show (and we're talking all about going from peer to manager and five easy steps)? What's one word you wanna get out of today's show?
Ramona (08:29):
Yeah. I’d love it to be thought-provoking for both of us, but also for the listeners. Yeah. Yes.
Erin (08:36):
I love that. It's a hyphenated word. And we're gonna take the one word. I love that. I love it, Ramona. Okay. Let me ask you...
Ramona (08:43):
Girls three, take the row. Pick the,
Erin (08:46):
OK. Have you ever done, let me ask you this. This is very important. Have you ever done improv or used it in any of your coaching? And if not, that's totally okay. But have you ever tried it?
Ramona (08:55):
So scared by it? The idea like, yeah. When, when you know I was researching you, I was like, yeah, that's the thing that I'm most afraid of, which is probably the thing I should do.
Erin (09:06):
Oh, I love that. So truth be told. I was also afraid of it cuz I grew up...So we were chatting before the show. This is so perfect because you and I are both a type three enneagram, right? Yeah. When your enneagram is a three, and like, you know, we want to be achievers. We want to be in control. And I was always growing up with a script and I danced and I sang and I had all...by sing I mean like, you know, in show choir, I was really there for the jazz hands, but like I was, you know, always with a script and then the moment I started doing improv, it was the most terrifying thing. And it was exposure therapy. Exactly. I just kept going back and going back and now clearly it's my life calling to do it. Yes. But I'm, it's okay that you have not because I just always like to ask that question because we'll throw it in a little bit today. Yeah. As we go,
Ramona (09:59):
What it's really interesting is the, what you said about not wanting to lose control or, or fail in, in, especially in front of an audience. I think if you ask me, do you wanna skydive or improv? I skydive airplane many times. Cause you know, I, you know, it's nothing to, I just have to like jump and land that's that's it <laugh>,
Erin (10:22):
It's so true. And I will tell you, I, I went skydiving on my husband's 30th birthday. That's a one and done situation for me, but you're right. There's like a, there's like an immediate gratifying result. And that's interesting because improv there is not the immediate gratification.
Ramona (10:39):
No, there isn’t.
Erin (10:40):
Very interesting.
Ramona (10:41):
And it seems very unpredictable. Yeah. Oh, skydive is predictable. <Laugh>
Erin (10:46):
That is
Ramona (10:47):
Fact.
Erin (10:48):
That is a fact and something that I'm putting in the hopper to marinate on. I'm gonna put some, put that in the fridge, in a plastic bag. Oh also you don't, you haven't eaten meat since you were 12. Yeah. And are you a, do you eat fish? Are you a pescatarian or
Ramona (11:03):
Just I'm a, I'm a pescatarian. Chicken, chicken counts as chicken. Chicken counts as meat though in my eyes. Okay. People always say like, oh no worries. I got chicken for you. I'm like, no, no meat. That's meat.
Erin (11:12):
I, for...2007 is the last time I had like a full meat anything, but I don't like chicken either. That, Ramona, I feel like we were destined to be podcast sisters. <Laugh> OK. This is supposed to happen. OK. Well let's, let's talk about this. What...you have a fascinating career as I was researching you, I found just so many helpful, insightful tips, the tangible things that you give, the people that you coach, what made you want to become a leadership coach and a strategist? What, what brought you to this line of work?
Ramona (11:51):
Well, I think that there was always this thread throughout my life that I was really curious about people. In general, I love like going into other people's homes and looking what, how they do life and listening to life stories. And those things just always fascinated me. But then I also have an analytical brain. So then my, you know, I was born and, and raised in Switzerland and...analytical brain, good with math, you go study finance <laugh> yeah. Why not? There's a lot of job opportunities in the banking sector in Switzerland. So I did, I switched to study finance but always had this sort of personal development interest. I was always this parallel line, but it was more of a personal hobby. And then my job was numbers. And then I got into the situation where I was assigned to become a team leader for the peers that I was working with.
Ramona (12:46):
And that was a really interesting experience for me to go through. And I realized, you know, I did not have a whole lot of self-awareness at that point. So there's a lot of things I did not realize, but what I realized for sure is this is not really working well and I'm not enjoying this. And I don't think my diary reports are enjoying it either. So we were delivering results, we were sort of like on track, there wasn't a performance issue, but you know, when you get that hunch of like, ah, this could be better. And I got that and also felt like I was always working and felt frustrated about a lot of things. And then I hired my own coach and I realized, oh my gosh, so much. I didn't know. And so much I didn't see. And my own awareness kind of took a whole new level, reached a whole new level, and I found it so fascinating and I could not get over it.
Ramona (13:38):
And I started reading about leadership development and I started connecting the dots from personal, personal development, like, oh, same thing is true. Cuz people are people, whether they are in our personal lives, whether it's about us as a human on a Sunday, it's very, the patterns are the same as, as they are when we, when we walk into the office <laugh> yeah. Or we open the laptop at home. Exactly. It's the same things. And that also reignited my interest about humans. And I realized at that point, you know, numbers are fine and they're great. And I love that analytical side, but really my calling my profession, I think that I love to do is helping people grow. Ah, yeah. Which I think is so fascinating that I have a job where I can be curious all day and help people have new thoughts and new ideas.
Ramona (14:26):
And then I think what you were referring to the, to the tools and the, and all that, I think a big part of what I see as, as my value add in this space is I wanna turn knowledge into action. So where I feel a bit of...like I'm being the translator from: this is the knowledge, common sense. We know it, we've read it, but it's not happening. So how do we turn what we know into what we do, what we do day in and day out? So the actions, the thoughts, their behaviors, their words, and all that.
Erin (14:57):
I love that that in itself is so important because as lifelong learners, us enneagram threes, you know, and it's really impactful when you see the aha moment. And I love that that's what you saw, I can have that impact in this professional growth, personal growth space and numbers are great to have because you need to know to how to do the numbers, to run the business.
Ramona (15:23):
Yeah. That's helping <laugh>
Erin (15:24):
Yes. I I'm like, hey Ramona, we're gonna need to call you in here someday. No, but I love that you have both, and I love that this path led you to where you are now and that you love to give tangible tips. That is, to me, the most impactful thing about the work that we do is put it into action, put step-by-step integration in place. We can talk about it all day long, but unless we're taking the steps to get there, it's not gonna happen. So I, I I'm so happy to have you on this show because we have a lot of people who listen, who are first-time managers and are stepping into this leadership role. It's scary. They, they're going from a peer to a manager. And sometimes that happens within the same organization and they've been in their job for a while. And you know, they're like, well now guess what friend, Susie, I'm now your leader. And I think that can be really hard and confusing for somebody. So let me ask this, what would you say the single biggest mistake is for a first-time manager? What are some of the mistakes that you see off the, off the bat?
Ramona (16:38):
Well, I'm gonna pick right up where, where you went with this because what I just...right...in being really tactical, right? When this happens. So when you are transitioning from being a peer and a friend to now being a boss, I'm gonna call it a boss, not in a negative sense, but now you are someone's manager. And that relationship changes naturally. And the biggest mistake that you could make right then and there is not to talk about it. This is the elephant in the room and it's uncomfortable and both parties are, it's awkward for both people, but you have to talk about it. So having an open conversation will set this up so much easier and create a sense of trust, but also an open dialogue and you're sharing, hey, look, this is a little bit uncomfortable for me, or this is maybe a little awkward.
Ramona (17:25):
And yes, that relationship may change in certain ways because now I have to do things that are part of my job that weren't before. And you may have needs in terms of what you require from your manager, that you're now looking to me to meet and we'll have to figure this out and it might get awkward at times. The one thing that's most important is that the two of us can come together and that we can talk about the things that are working or aren't working even more so. And I always wanna hear how you're doing and how I can support you better or things that may be getting in the way of you feeling engaged, motivated, and successful at work. And that kind of dialogue is the first thing to do right in that transition.
Erin (18:12):
I love that. Can I get really super tactical with you? How should they set that conversation up? Like, let's say, you know, I found out I'm the leader and my best friend, Susan, I'm calling her Susan. She, she and I have been friends, but now I know I'm stepping into this role. What's the best way to approach Susan
Ramona (18:33):
Is to say, “Hey Susan, can we have--it's really--yeah. Can we have a quick chat? Do you wanna go for a walk? Do you wanna go get coffee?” This doesn't even have to be a very intimate, formal space. Or just, “Can we jump on a call?” Right? If you're working virtually it's as easy as that, make it casual, informal. We're not all of a sudden trying to be a different person, right? That's not gonna work and it's gonna feel weird even more so, but then again, embrace that. It's just awkward. It's not, you're not doing anything wrong. Your employee's not doing anything wrong. It's just the situation transitioning from a peer into a manager role. Redefining that relationship is a little awkward. So don't feel like anything went wrong if that's what you're experiencing.
Erin (19:16):
Yeah. I love that. And that's really, that's really great advice too, cuz I think sometimes (I'm just gonna speak for myself) sometimes when we, when we gain an authoritative role or we step into this new role, we have evolved as people and it takes other people time to catch up to that evolution and that's okay. That's...it's not your fault. And I have a hard time with that myself. I think that's really great advice because you are stepping into that role because you deserve it. And you're stepping into that role because you have taken the steps to get there. And if somebody else isn't caught up to that mindset yet, it's not your problem. Just keep moving forward. I love that. Rumbo, nuuuhhhh, okay. So, oh wait, anything you wanna add there?
Ramona (20:02):
<Laugh> I always good. Always good. But I guess the, the one thing that just came up for me was this idea, what you just said about letting someone else go through their journey of acceptance <laugh> career, even acceptance, right. And all that. The same is true when it, when it is, when it comes to the situation where you have to give feedback on a lot of things, and this is now maybe one of those mistakes that we, that you asked me about one of the mistakes is that there's a mismatch or a lack of balance between wanting to be a friend and being liked versus wanting to be a manager being respected. So yeah, new managers often have a harder time generally going forth and back and trying to figure out what's the right approach. They don't wanna be pushy. They don't wanna be bossy.
Ramona (20:45):
So then they lean into that friend-sphere and they aim to be liked, but that is gonna get in the way of them giving feedback when feedback is called for, or being really explicit or direct, or also challenge them in a way that may feel comfortable to the employee, but is for their best interest as a person who wants to be liked and wants to be a friend, that's gonna be really hard. So one of those big shifts, and I talk about this a lot with moving into a leadership role for the first time, is probably one of their biggest shifts you make in your career because not just the responsibility is different, but it's such a change in your mindset and your attitude. And for many people a change in their identity and how, who they are as employees of an organization. It's like they're jumping from one like water bowl into the other water bowl, moving from an icy, you know, box into that leadership box.
Ramona (21:44):
And that's a big shift. We'll talk more about some of the mistakes that people make, where they're, they're in their management role, but still swimming in the wrong box right over here. And that can get...that down the road can lead to a lot of conflict or disappointment, frustration, retention issues and so forth. But I think where I was going with this is when we're in that feedback situation, we wanna be liked. We're gonna sugarcoat. We're not gonna be specific or even avoid the whole difficult conversation overall. And we probably are not gonna be as explicit and direct in terms of expectations and accountability as we need to. So understanding that, okay, so this is now shifting. I'm less, it's less about being liked and it's more about being respected as a manager. Yes. We try to have both that's important, but when it comes down to what to prioritize, lean into being respected as the manager who fulfills the role of the manager, which is being direct and clear, and then someone else may feel disappointed or sad or frustrated or upset with the decision that you had to make. And that is okay. As long as you feel that you did the best for the team or for what the situation called for, and you're doing the best in communicating it in an effective way, being compassionate and then letting the other person have their experience. And the more that we can let that go and make it less about us and more about them, the more compassionate we can be.
Erin (23:14):
Mm
Ramona (23:14):
It's not so much me. Me, me. Yeah. And a lot more about, huh, okay. This is what's happening. How can I support them?
Erin (23:20):
Ramona? You were spitting some truths today, you know, who needed to hear this? Me? I I'm like, yes. And I hope you too improve it, peeps. I hope you too. That is awesome. And you know, I heard this okay. I did not come up with this, but I heard this from one of my Peloton instructors recently and she said, so this is, you know, gold. She said, “Validation is for parking. Ha. And I said, I said, “Yes, we'll write that one down.”
Ramona (23:52):
So good. But
Erin (23:53):
That's, that's so true because as a leader, recovering people pleaser, all the things. I think that the, the first thing is I want them to like me. I want them to like me and I really have, I've had to stretch the muscles of leadership as I've grown in my career too, because it is hard to go from a peer to a leader. And it takes a lot of shifting of your mindset first in order for other people to shift theirs. So I love what you said about that. That's so true. Now I wanna say, because this is, is also hand-in-hand with what we're talking about, what are some habits? And like we were talking before we hit record, too, you're an early riser. You're, that's your circadian rhythm. And so I know you've got some great habits. What are some key leadership habits that new managers can start implementing to become more confident in their leadership role?
Ramona (24:56):
Yeah. so actually I'm gonna take a quick step back cause I, one of the things that I talk about and I help my clients with is, or I apply this APS method and APS stands for awareness. So building self-awareness and awareness of others. P stands for developing your leadership principles, like the philosophy on how you wanna lead, and S actually stands for a leadership system. And this system is all the habits and the routines that you develop and pick up as you go and read books, or you observe other leaders, or the things, the things that they do that will help them be good leaders. So they're not reactive to situations, but proactive. We hear, for example, a lot about these days, there's sort of this idea of “stay interviews,” cuz we have a lot of resignations in, in companies and a lot of turnover.
Ramona (25:46):
And so companies start to do these “stay interviews,” which is all about having a conversation with the employee before there's an exit. So how we make sure that you, that you’re happy, that this is working and where you’re at anyways. And so having recurring stay interviews, for example, would be something that you wanna put into your leadership system. And I don't just mean mentally, like actually write this down as here is how I do leadership. These are the actual behaviors that my team will observe me doing or asking for a clear one that's sort of the, the low hanging fruit is to have regular one-on-one meetings. And I'd usually, I'd say in most cases a weekly one-on-one is probably best cuz a lot of things happen in fast-paced organizations. There is reason for having biweekly or monthly one-on-one meetings, but as long...they have to be recurring and they have to be prioritized, not a whole lot of rescheduling and not a whole lot of canceling and really figuring out how do I run effective one-on-one meetings that make the most of this quality time together? Feedback, conversations, career conversations, knowing how to delegate and having a common language around delegating work as well as what happens or team meetings that we set up, how we do, how we define goals for our team, the behaviors, the behavioral norms also known as social contracts that we set up and what we're expecting, which is by the way, even more important for hybrid teams and remote teams, because there's such a, such a vast discrepancy of what people think is expected of them.
Ramona (27:27):
Then what actually is expected and we wanna make this explicit. So these are all tools to and systems or, or routines that should be plucked into a leadership system, things that you wanna do. And so as a new manager, you know, I, I would really encourage you and I hope I provoke some thoughts on this, going back to our intention, how do you develop your awareness and how do you make that something that keeps happening? Like you said, this is a journey we're always learning. How do you learn about yourself? And what's working? What is, how do you invest time and effort in learning about the people that you work with most closely, what are your leadership principles? What's your leadership philosophy? The more that you know, that the better you'll be able to make decisions in a consistent way, but also the more predictable and certain people will that you lead will be about your leadership, which is something that develops trust. And we all are human, social creatures. We want thirst to tea <laugh> yeah. And predictability. And then that last part, write down what are your leadership systems? What's what goes into that system? What are the habits and the routines you do on a recurring basis?
Erin (28:38):
Mm, this is so good APS. Okay. What I, I took away so many thoughts from that, but I also love what you just said about predictability. I feel like that is so true when you work for somebody who, you know, their reaction to a certain situation, you're like, okay, Susan's gonna re I'm gonna go back to Susan. Susan is gonna react this way. And you know, she's not gonna be happy, but I know this is going to be the outcome that as an improviser, who lives in a very unpredictable world, most of the time is comforting. It's almost like I know you have three children. I have a toddler. It's like, he needs to feel the safety and security by having rules. And by having, you know, his parenting style be consistent. It's the same with leadership, which is just so fascinating. You just turn so many wheels and my brain with that, the predictability piece of the, of your principles, it's like you're guiding light. Your principles is so interesting to think about and take apart because that is a habit. It's a habit because you're continuously doing that. I love that. Okay. Let me ask you this. If you were to break down five easy steps for somebody listening today to implement, as they go from peer to manager, what would that, what would those five steps be?
Ramona (30:04):
So I'm gonna like, you know, what did I say earlier? <Laugh> I'm not breaking rules. I'm bending rules. Yes.
Erin (30:12):
I like that. I like that.
Ramona (30:14):
My kids hear me. So like rules don't apply to me like wait a second. But they do apply to you. So nevermind.
Erin (30:19):
Yes they do.
Ramona (30:20):
Yes, they do that. You too bad teaching. So I'm calling it, let's call it steps and shift. Yeah. Is some, some things need to shift. So one would be, if we go about, we go with that set up a five, one would be ask questions. You don't need to know all the answers and you do not have a crystal ball that would tell you what people need from you. So if you're a leader you are likely, or a new manager, there's sort of this underlying sense. But sometimes I feel like it's also a bit of a stigma or an expectation that the outside world <laugh> sets, sets upon these new managers that they should now know. It's not true. You don't need to know. You can't know, you have to ask. So the first step would be have these co conversations look at there are a lot of resources out there, including my website around coaching co coaching questions, career related questions, talking about expectations that they have on you and what's working for them and what isn't and what are their ultimate goals and, and or career steps that are somewhat more immediate.
Ramona (31:24):
So the more questions that you can ask and learn about other people, the better you'll be able to lead because leading is not about you leading your team, the way that you wanna be led, it's all about you leading your team members the way they need to be and want to be led mm-hmm <affirmative>. So there's in one leadership style. Like you gotta flex, you gotta flex your style. And you will only be able to do that when you know what they actually need. Yeah. So that would be, that would probably be one. The other one is that you wanna ask for help. And this is again, one of those things just as, as you should have, you should know it all. You should also not need to ask for help. Cause that would be a sign that you are not ready for it asking for help.
Ramona (32:11):
And that includes signing up for coaching programs or trainings or going to conferences or seminars, or having asking for a mentorship in the organization. Right? So asking someone to be their mentor or asking for additional stakeholder meetings or meetings with your manager early on or asking your HR department for additional resources and guidelines, asking them what got managers into trouble in the past and what makes managers in this organization. Great. These kind of questions and asking for help are not a sign of weakness. There are a sign of strength and a sign of high emotional intelligence and self awareness. And so lean into asking for it, to set yourself up for success. We look at a range of, of studies and we see that depending on what research piece we are looking at here, 40 to 60% of new managers fail or underperform in their first two years on the job, which is in essence to say the odds are against you.
Ramona (33:15):
So when you're in that new role and it may be in us as anagram threes, we're like, yeah, yeah, I got this challenges. I love it. Let's lean into it. Right. But we may not realize. And as, so I speak very much about my own experience here too. May not realize how much of a change this is. This isn't just, oh, promotion. And you know, a little more work and just work a little harder. No. What got you into to that promotion into that role in the first place is not, what's gonna get you to the next step, to that next level. And it's not gonna be what makes you successful as a leader? It's a complete shift. I was actually talking to a client of mine recently who said we were, he was on my podcast talking about his transition. And I said something like, you know, it's like, you would never step stand on top of a mountain and try to ski down a black slope without ever having had any ski lessons. You wouldn't do that. But then in leadership, you think we can do that. Yeah. And his response is like, yeah, but it's actually that you were an amazing swimmer and someone said, or you yourself were like, I'm an amazing swimmer. I can totally ski down a black slope.
Erin (34:20):
<Laugh> yeah, that is so
Ramona (34:22):
True.
Erin (34:23):
Can I tell you something? I actually did that once. I'm not joking. I went to my first ski trip and I walked, we, we, my friends were like, we're gonna do a black diamond. I'm like, yeah, I totally thought I could do it. I took my skis off on the mountain, put them over my shoulder and walked down. You cannot, it is not physically possible. Back to the little like rope thing with the clown on what's three what's three,
Ramona (34:57):
Three would be two hire people who, or, and develop people who are better than you. So yes, you do not need to be smartest in the room. You do not need to have all the answers, like I said. So hire people, look for people who know things and do things better than you and, or develop them if they're not there yet to develop them, meet the expectation that they'll be better than you. It is no longer your responsibility to deliver your own results. The way that you'll be successful is to deliver results through others.
Erin (35:29):
Oh my God. I love that.
Ramona (35:30):
Or with the help of others, but it's no longer on you.
Erin (35:34):
I love that.
Ramona (35:35):
Yeah. And that actually brings me what is that three? That brings me to four, which is to rethink what a productive day looks like. Because one of the struggles that many new managers have is that they think, oh my gosh, I don't even get to my own work until five o'clock because all day I was answering everyone else's questions and I was helping everyone else do their chop. So that by five o'clock they feel accomplished. And then they all go off, do their, whatever they're doing at night. And then here I sit at my laptop and I still look at the same todo list or probably the to-do list from this morning with five additional things on it. And I haven't even started my work. And the, that the problem here is that they think the way to be productive is the same way they needed to be productive as an IC individual contributor.
Ramona (36:26):
But that's very different. Now, a way to be productive today is to help other people be successful. And so if you, if it's five o'clock and all you did all day is helping other people be successful, you achieved your goal. And then the problem is not, oh, there's something wrong with it. Or it's the, the team members are asking too many questions. Although there's a whole thing around that too, where we can remove some of the dependability, but the problem is more that you still think that you'll have to get through your same to-do list because you wanna be productive or feel like you are contributing to the team.
Erin (37:02):
That is so true. I'm I mean, literally I feel like you are supposed to talk to me today, Ramona, keep going. Okay. Okay.
Ramona (37:12):
And you know what, one of those sneaky thoughts is like, if I don't deliver these things, my team members will wonder what I do all day. Yeah. Like they'll be, they'll be thinking that I don't lift. I'm not helping, like I'm not lifting my weight. Yeah. Because it's so intangible what I do. I'm just in meetings all day and I get nothing done and that's probably, you're probably doing it. Right.
Erin (37:36):
Yeah. I love that. Okay. Give us number five. Cause these are so awesome.
Ramona (37:41):
Number five is to so in terms of like the steps or the shift to be successful as a new manager, number five would be to take charge in setting expectations and giving direction. A lot of new managers are still looking for their, to their boss to define expectations and set the direction what your boss is gonna look for. And senior leaders in your organizations are likely if I had to make a gas here is, are likely looking to you to start taking the lead, not just to manage, but to take the lead. And that includes this helping shape the strategic efforts or the strategic plan of your team contributing to the, the goal setting process of the strategic outlook or planning process for the entire department to elevate information from ground up. Right? So that people have the information that you see and your team observes or gathers. It also means that then you wanna set direction and, and influence that upwards, but also be really clear and communicate that downwards. And I speak about the hierarchical structure here and also get really clear on the expectations that you're setting for your team. Everyone on your team should have a hundred percent clarity or aiming for that a hundred percent clarity on what is expected for them to, to be considered successful in their role.
Erin (39:15):
Yes. Okay. Yes. Keep going, keep going.
Ramona (39:18):
Sorry. Yeah. It's, it's unbelievable. How often I talk to people and I say so by the end of the year, how will, you know, if you were successful and not just how you feel about it, but how will you know that your manager is going to assess you as having been successful in your role? And I get blank, stares backs, like I actually don't know. It's like, okay. Mm, you gotta know.
Erin (39:42):
I love that. And even if you're not in a revenue producing role, or there needs to be some type of tangible metric to allow success, or, and, and I guess not even metric or some type of tangible thing outcome, because I do think that that's where the I've been in a role myself prior to being in improve it, where there was the goal was get new business. Okay. Well, how much new business? What is my goal? What is there were no goals. It was just bring in what you can. And that was the hardest job I ever had because I did not know what success look like.
Ramona (40:15):
Yeah.
Erin (40:17):
Oh, I really like that. That is special. Okay. I love this. I'm writing this down. What does success look like? These are my notes. I like to like, remember what you say, because this is so tangible. I mean, this is truly these thoughts. These shifts are imperative. If you want to go from the, the cold water, which I love this analogy, the cold water to this box full of water. And did I say that right? Did I mess it up? Did I, but it probably, but I feel like I get you though. Yes. You feel, you know, and I think that sometimes jumping, getting outside of our box, which is what we use improv for is hard. It feels uncomfortable. It feels icky. But then once we start playing in this other box and developing our skills in this other box, we're gonna outgrow that and have to jump to another one.
Erin (41:14):
So it's just getting, moving from box to box continuously and embracing that journey, I think is another key. Part of all, this is really like allowing yourself as a human being to understand that transitions are a part of life. And like, I see this plant behind you. We're all, we all start with our roots, but then we have to grow. And it's just really cool. The work that you do, how transformative it is when you break it down. When you say, when I hear the word leadership, I'm like, yeah. Leadership. And that's what we teach on. But there's so much that goes into it. There's so many tools there's toolkits. And I really love what you shared with us today. I wanna ask you this very important question, cuz they had improve it. We say you're, it could be anything. It could be. What is your purpose? What's your, what are you here to do? So Ramona, what is your it?
Ramona (42:07):
Oh my gosh. I wanna turn like, thank God. It's Friday to thank God. It's Monday. I love weekends. Don't get me wrong. Right? I love all the things that come at weekends. We're in a time where every one of us has this potential or has this opportunity to bring our talent and strength to a workplace, to be creative and innovative and range of different jobs out there for us to lean into. Right. In the past, if you think even about, you know, Mrs. Smith, like, well, she was, you know, do you know where she's coming from? Or, you know, my family's generation was like a generation of baker. You had a bakery in a restaurant it's like this, this was generation after generation. And that's just what you did. But today we can choose in many ways and define and shape how, what we do day in and day out.
Ramona (43:00):
And when we feel that we can have a contribution and impact on other people on businesses, but we feel valued and respected for what we bring to the table. And there isn't any qualifier in that. Just what the re the resources and talents that we have. And we can create workplaces where people do feel valued and respected and cared for. I think that's when, when we, as humans thrive at a whole different level. And so I wanna create and be part of this mission to create workplaces where people love to love to work and be work with leaders they love to work with and, and be part of teams that they love and, and feel like they're contributing in a meaningful way.
Erin (43:46):
I love that. And that's, that's my Oprah voice. <Laugh> and I, I think it's so true. That's what we love to say here and improve it, that it of yours is so we're so similar. Ramona, I love this. I feel like we were destined made of the podcast airwaves. I feel like this was supposed to happen.
Ramona (44:05):
Yeah, me too.
Erin (44:06):
Tell, tell the, improve it peeps, where they can find you what they need to do. If they want more Ramona Shaw, what did they do?
Ramona (44:14):
Yeah. So I have a book that came out earlier this year, 2022, and it's called the confident and competent new manager, how to rapidly rise to success in your first leadership role that's available on Amazon. That would probably be the first place to go. A second place would be my website, Ramona shop.com or I'm also on LinkedIn.
Erin (44:34):
Yay. And you have a podcast as well. I have a podcast as well. Yay. Yes. And tell, tell 'em the podcast name
Ramona (44:40):
It's called the manager track.
Erin (44:42):
Yes. And we will link to all these things in the show notes. I am so thrilled. We had you on the show today. Thank
Ramona (44:50):
You so much for having
Erin (44:51):
No, thank you. And I mean, you've literally changed my day. I have so many things that I wanna think about. I know, improve it. Peeps are walking away just with so many tangible tips, which is so important. So thank you for helping us lean into our
Ramona (45:04):
Power. What I do, like I'm gonna have to sign up for improv class. So also like embracing the fail. Yeah. <laugh> fail.
Erin (45:16):
Yeah. Okay. I, this just made my day. Okay. Lives have changed. Things have changed. I'm so grateful to have you on this show and this won't be the last time. Okay. We'll talk again soon. All right. Thank
Ramona (45:29):
You so much for having me. Bye bye. Bye.
Erin (45:40):
Oh, I bet you just had to turn your volume down. Didn't you? I'm so sorry. No, I'm not. I am on fire. That episode was so tangible. I could have talked to Ramona for hours. Let me break this down for you. The five easy steps. Number one, ask questions, ask people, what do they want? Long term, their ultimate goals. Number two, ask for help. This includes coaches, trainings conferences, number three, hire people and develop them better than you and develop them that they will be better than you with that mindset that blew my mind. And that is so accurate. So yes, number four, rethink what a productive day looks like. And number five, take charge and setting expectations.
Erin (46:29):
I love that. So take those five steps. If you are somebody transitioning, or if you're a leader who is currently leading a team and really put them into practice. What I really took away from this episode is redefining what success looks like. Not only for you, but for the people that you lead. So making sure that each person on your team has a clear path to what success looks like for them long term, but year over year is a great way to break that down. So that's your tangible make sure that every direct report that you lead has an idea of what success looks like in their role. And if it's not a role with revenue generation or a super high metric driven role, find some qualitative way to make sure that this person knows what success looks like. And then celebrate the crap out of, of that success when they achieve it.
Erin (47:31):
You know what I'm gonna say, improve it. Peeps, keep on failing, keep improv because the world needs that very special. It that only you can bring, I'll see you next week. Hey friends, thanks for tuning in to improve it. I am so happy you were along for the ride. If you enjoyed this show, head on over to iTunes to leave us a five star review and subscribe to this show. So you never miss an episode. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Now, if you're really feeling today, show, and you've improved it even just a little bit, please take a screenshot and tag me at keeping it real deal on Instagram and share it in your stories. I'll see you next week, but I wanna leave you with this thought, what did you improve today and how will that help your future successful self? Think about it. I am rooting for you and the world needs that special. It that only you can bring see you next time.