Episode 149: Why Perfectionism is Harmful for Leaders with Jess Joswick
You know when the project you’re working on is acceptable, maybe even good - but you can’t stop trying to repair it, more so to buy time rather than to actually improve it?
In this three-part episode, Erin is joined by business and leadership coach Jess Joswick to discuss perfectionism in all its forms, especially the ones we don’t want to confront.
Not only will you hear about the origins of perfectionism and how it impacts you personally, but how perfectionism trickles down into your team, the organization you lead, or the presence you have.
ICYMI – Your Post-Episode Homework: Get serious and still with these questions: Are you suffering from perfectionism? Have you been negatively impacted by a leader who led (or still leads) with perfectionism? How did that impact you/how does it still impact you today? Spend some time with no music, no podcasts, and really sit with these questions. Journal or meditate about it.
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Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
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Episode 149 Transcription
Erin (00:00):
Welcome to the Improve It! Podcast.
Erin (00:10):
Improve it! Peeps. I'm so excited for this week's guest. We're doing something different. We're changing it up. We're getting comfy with the uncomfortable. I'm doing all the things we talk about doing. Guess what? Putting that, putting my money where my mouth is. Okay. Literally, we are doing three episodes every week for you. Three. Can you believe that? Three. So here's why I like listening to podcasts that are smaller bite sized chunks. 40, 50 minute episodes are great if you're on a road trip, but sometimes we need these 20 minute chunks. And so that's what these next few months are gonna be like around here. We're gonna see if we like it, see if it sticks. We're gonna give you three episodes a week on Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. They're gonna be about 20 minutes each, and we're gonna give you a guest, or maybe it's a solo show with me and a mini soap, but they're gonna be three different smaller bite size chunks.
Erin (01:16):
You'll be able to listen to guests in three separate parts. So today, let me start off with our guest. It's Jess Swick, who is a business coach for online leaders who wants to create high ticket offers and high performing teams. So she's committed to helping people build equitable businesses that shift our society structures and change the conversation. She has paraded her background in marketing, brand management, and fundraising with real life business tools and mindset work to help her clients blow their own minds. She lives in Pasadena, California, and in her free time, you can find her hiking, playing video games, and searching for the perfect MAA latte. Yum. All right. I'm so thrilled to have Jess on this show. Jess, as a light. She is so, so smart and has so much to talk about when it comes to perfectionism. Today's episode is going to give you several reasons why perfectionism is harmful for leaders, and I want you to listen to today's show and ask yourself, have you ever suffered from perfectionism as a leader yourself? Or have you ever had a leader who was a perfectionist? And how did that feel for you? You're gonna hear us talk about that in today's show. Wanted to give you the setup of how things are gonna go around here. I am so excited to bring you this three part series with Jess Joss. Let's get to improving it.
Erin (02:57):
Jess Joswick. Okay. Welcome to the improve it! Pod.
Jess (03:05):
Thank you so much. Really excited. Erin. Thank you so much for, for having me on. This is gonna be a lot of fun.
Erin (03:12):
Yes. And I'm just, I'm thrilled that we have you on the show. I'm thrilled that we found you because the topics that you are passionate about are some of the most passionate topics that I'm passionate about. And I know that the improvement peeps are also super here for this conversation. So let's just dive right into it because this idea of perfection, ASM is plaguing all of us. Yes. And it's so big. It's, it's truly, for me, I'm a recovering perfectionist and I told you this, turn fill fluid, sir. And there have just been so many things in my life that I realized have set me back because of perfectionism. But I am so curious, how do you define perfectionism?
Jess (04:08):
Yeah, so my, I mean, yeah, we were talking about this that we're both recovering perfectionists for sure. My definition is that perfectionism is the belief that the you can, that you and your work can be without flaws like that, that whole thing is attainable. Like, yeah, that exists. Somebody else is doing it, and I gotta, I gotta be like that. And that really translates to the need to, to show up and show off and really show up to show off. And so it it, the end of the, at the end of the day though, perfectionism is really procrastination.
Erin (04:51):
Yeah.
Jess (04:52):
And that's how it manifests. Like we are putting off whatever we're trying to do. And the endless tinkering is just leading to a delay, a delay in the impact that we can make.
Erin (05:06):
Ooh, I'm gonna take that in for a second because per, for me, I could see that in so many areas of life, I'm just talking about myself. Hopefully everybody listening, can think of a time when you've procrastinated because you were afraid of perfectionism. College is like the biggest thing for me. Oh, yeah. When it comes, I was, I put the pro and procrastinator, like I was the person in the library until 2:00 AM because I just didn't wanna do it because I wasn't into a, some of the topics that I had to learn about in the very beginning weren't as exciting to me. But then b I just didn't wanna do it because I didn't think I was gonna get that. A and that right there is already, you know, a form of perfectionism when you wish that you were able to achieve, achieve, achieve. But then I think would you say that some perfectionists just give up at times because they don't want to have to go the extra mile and they know that they may not be the best, so they just disassociate and stop?
Jess (06:14):
Totally. Totally. I mean, I, this has happened, you know, I've seen this over and over with, with former clients current clients just in my life that you know, there's a mentality of if I can't hit this out of the park, then it's not worth my time. If I can't, you know, get the a like you said, or just totally wow, somebody, then it, then I shouldn't do it at all. And we say that, I mean, that's reinforced over and over again in the structures of our society. You know, it's so, it's not just, it isn't just something that is a personal failing or like, you know, you and I made up or anything like that. It, it is a shared it. We, we get that message from a lot of different arenas. And school is definitely one of them.
Jess (07:04):
You know, if you, I was totally high achieving. I was, you know, in all of the clubs I was doing, all of the things got into college, you know, and that, that belief that if I like basically my grades, my, my grades, my output is tied to my worth really solidified there for sure. So, you know, it's not just something that that happens to individual people, which that's what, you know, that's what perfection, that's one of the silent sort of symptoms of perfectionism. We think that we are isolated and that it's only happening to us, and that all of the bad things that we're doing are our fault. It's definitely not the case at all.
Erin (07:51):
Yeah. Have you, so you talk about college, but have you ever, have you suffered specifically from perfectionism in your own life? Is this why you teach it? Is there is, tell me a little bit about that.
Jess (08:07):
Yeah, so my definitely <laugh>, first of all so before I became a business coach, I was a graphic designer. And I mean, in design, perfectionism is, is the goal, like you should put out, if you're not putting out your best work all the time, that is, you're just a bad designer. Like you can't be sloppy. And there's definitely a culture of you know, of that expectation from clients and, and, you know, if you work in an agency, it's, it's, it's even, it's magnified because it feels like everybody's watching and, you know, you have to, yeah, we have this whole process to, to get to something, but each step of the process needs to be really, really amazing. So, yeah, that's kind of where I, I noticed I started to notice it in my, in, in my own career. And then as I became a coach, it, it, it's such a rich ground as a coach to create a, an environment to create a relationship with your client that is super co-dependent. Like, I need to show up really great. Or else they're gonna, they're gonna dump me <laugh>, basically. Yeah. And they're gonna fire me. And you know, I see that with a lot of service-based businesses too. Oh, yeah. Just like, yeah. Like, I need to give them all this stuff. Right?
Erin (09:38):
Yeah. And that mentality, I think when you go from a need base, like, I need, they need me, I need them to, I want to serve you, I want to give you this information. I, it's a different level of service. It's a different level of communicating, and that perfectionism gets stifled. Because I would beg to say this, and tell me what you think that perfectionism is rooted in fear.
Jess (10:08):
Totally.
Erin (10:09):
And, and that fear itself obviously is its own, it's its own topic versus perfectionism, but perfectionism as a whole is really being afraid of the unknown versus going into a specific, you know, conversation, a specific project saying, I'm going to it, I'm going to get through this. It may not be the most perfect thing I've ever done, but I'm gonna give it what I have. And then that, that versus, oh my gosh, I have to get this done. It has to be perfect. Already feels more joyful.
Jess (10:47):
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah, totally. Yeah. It's a joy sucker. Totally <laugh>, I mean, yeah. Not having fun. Yeah. But yeah, it's totally based in fear. And, you know, when we're stuck in perfectionism, it's, we're making everything about us. You're totally focused on you. And, you know, when you're a leader, you, you can't be focused on yourself. You can't just look in the mirror and, you know, be worried about how everyone else is perceiving you because you've got a whole team to run or company to run, or, you know, people, people have needs. And so it's totally based in fear. It makes, you know, that results in an ego, you know, lens, like your looking for ways that people can hurt you. And, and perfectionism, you know, it's interesting that you used, what's the root of it as the, as a phrase, because the, the real, the deepest root of perfectionism is white supremacy culture. That this, this belief that there's one right way to do something. And if we're not doing it that way, then we are bad, or it's not okay to do that. It's a total marker of a, you know, of a culture that is really that is oppressive. It does not allow for expansion. It does not allow for marginalized identities. It's just this, this way or the highway and get on board or get out of the way. And that's not how we should run stuff.
Erin (12:18):
Yeah. I'm here for that conversation. I'm here for that. I like, so this, I had this question prepared, but it just fits in so nicely to what you're talking about. We can all think about people, leaders who we've been led by. Maybe they're white and maybe they're of a specific gender who knows, who have <laugh>. They, they make you feel less than because they're, their fundamental is, I'm right and you're wrong, and it's this way or the highway. And that my friends, as everyone listening here, knows as people, leaders who care so much about their people is not how businesses run in 2023. And if it is y it's time to find a new business <laugh>,
Jess (13:17):
Because
Erin (13:17):
Yeah, this is not, this is not the way of the future. It's not the way of the generations that are rising into the workforce's future. This way of thinking is no, it's gone. We're done. Right? Because we have this opportunity now to blaze our own trails, to create new conversations, to make people feel seen, heard and valued by actually listening and letting go of the ego and letting go of it's right versus wrong. So I wanted, this was something I wanted to ask you. Have you ever had a leader in your life who was a perfectionist? And if so, how did that perf <laugh>? Oh, yeah. How did that impact your performance? Yeah, <laugh>,
Jess (14:02):
Well yes, <laugh>,
Erin (14:04):
And you don't have to name names, you don't have to name names. We'll, not name. We'll not be naming names.
Jess (14:09):
Yes. I absolutely have. And you know, it was a white woman, and so, you know, we are complicit in this a hundred percent. And it created a culture of, I mean, for lack of a better word, snitching <laugh> like that, you know, people would basically te you know, try to save their own hide from her wrath about something that wasn't up to her standard that she never told us in the first place. <Laugh>. So like, generally, I guess miscommunication or like lack of, lack of communication, you know when a company's operating from half truths or, you know, 50% of the information constantly. But then there's the expectation for everything to be great. That was definitely the case for, for us, and also just like sitting on projects forever. I mean, I was just, you know, trying to complete things. And, you know, the, the person, the, the manager in between myself and, and this leader wa was also, you know, learned this, this behavior as well. So when you have a leader who is, you know, really dedicated to perfectionism and really dedicated to it's their way or the highway, it trickles down to everybody. You know, the fish rots from the head down, so everybody starts to behave that way because they understand that that's the way to, you know, gain power and to gain a cred, you know, credibility at that organization.
Erin (15:46):
Oh my God, I love the phrase the fish rots from the head down. I've, can I tell you, I've never heard that before. I'm gonna take that one and I'll quote you, Jess. I'm sure it's
Jess (15:56):
A, it's
Erin (15:57):
Not my phrase, it's not your phrase. No, no, but I'm gonna say I heard it here. I love that because that is true. And it, what I'm hearing you say too is that your creativity was stifled, which clearly is not a pro, is a, is not productive at all. And you just sat on projects, which again, not productive. And then at the same time, you felt disempowered because you can't come to the table with anything because you're not being seen or heard. So therefore, did, how long were you in that job? I'm just so curious.
Jess (16:35):
About three years. Definitely longer than it should have been.
Erin (16:39):
Yeah. And then were you just done, you just checked out probably at year two, but you were looking for another, you know, that whole Yeah, exactly. Yes. Yeah, because it's so, I mean, I have also been in a similar experience earlier in my career, and you just get to this point of extreme exhaustion. It's exhausting trying to live up to expectations that don't clearly exist.
Jess (17:05):
Exactly. <laugh>. Yes. That's, and it's the assumption that you are just gonna understand something that isn't written down anywhere. Nobody's talked about it. And, and that's what contributes to a toxic culture. It's certainly not the only thing, but you know, it, it, it's a big part of it. It's, I mean, it's just very frustrating first of all. But you know, when you're always in fear of being yelled at, of being reprimanded for something that you didn't know about, you know, you're constantly in that, like your nervous system is all messed up. So yeah. It's, it's horrible. Yeah. But all of those things that you identified are accurate For sure, for
Erin (17:47):
Sure. I love that, that, that you mentioned the nervous system, because that is huge. That plays such a key part in our overall happiness. And, you know, when your nervous system isn't enacting in the appropriate way, you can feel those feelings throughout your entire body. And it's, your body's in signals constantly. And if you actually listen to them, imagine the difference you can make in your own life. The freedom you could feel the unpleasantness, the unpled by perfectionism. We could all protect ourselves from, there's a lot of peace in that, lots of alliteration. But I just, I really love this concept of your idea of perfectionism, why it's harmful for leaders. I love that suffering for yourself from this leader who was the perfectionist, has played a role, I would assume, and how you show up and lead people in your own organization, how you coach your clients. Is that the Totally, would you say that that is also true?
Jess (18:47):
Oh, absolutely. Yes. And you know, we all have blind spots. We all have weaknesses. And, and it's important to, I, I found as a leader you know, one of my blind spots was just not comu actually not communicating the, the length of the project. But instead of going into a cycle of berating myself or berating team members being like, why didn't you know that I, you know, I, I'm now at the point, thankfully where because of my experience and my coach training, I can pause and be like, okay, well how am I part of this problem? Like, how have I created this problem? Because, you know, this team member is, they're good at what they do. They are equipped to do the thing. So what part of this is my fault? Because it's always, it, it's, it's rarely it in is the case that you have a situation in, in business where there's, you know, disagreement a mistake happened and it's completely somebody else's fault. That is my stance. You know, that's the hell that I will die on about this. Yes, it's often that they just weren't set up for success in some capacity.
Erin (20:09):
Hmm. Okay. I'm loving this so much.
Erin (20:21):
Oh, improve at peeps. Jess is awesome, and I could talk to her forever. And guess what? We are going to, she's gonna come back on this show. You're gonna hear her in episode one 50, in episode 1 51. But today I want you to take away this thought. Are you suffering from perfectionism? I want you to get really serious and really still with this. And I want you to think about are you suffering from perfectionism or have you suffered from a leader who has led with perfectionism? And how did that impact you? So really take this journal about it. Think about it. If you're in your car, I want you to spend some time with no music, no podcasts, and really sit with this question, are you suffering from perfectionism? As always, I want you to know that this is your time to invest in yourself professionally.
Erin (21:20):
So please do it. If today's show moved you, please consider leaving us a review on iTunes. It really does impact us and helps more people come to the Improve It Pete family. You know what I'm gonna say? Keep improving, keep failing, because this world needs that very special it that only you can bring. I'll see you soon. Hey, friend, did you enjoy today's show? If so, head on over to iTunes to rate and subscribe. So you never miss an episode. Now, did I mention that when you leave a five star review of the Improve It Podcast, an actual team of humans does a happy dance? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>? That's right. So leave a review for us on iTunes, screenshot it, and send me an email at info learn to improve it.com. I'll send you a personalized video back as a thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Improve at Peeps. I'll see you next Wednesday.