Episode 150: How to Identify Perfectionism in Yourself and Your Team with Jess Joswick
Perfectionism is a word and an idea that we throw around frequently, but has anyone taught us how to actually identify its signs within ourselves? Within our team?
If we can’t identify perfectionism within ourselves and in our team, we can’t begin to dismantle it and develop more sustainable personal and professional habits. Awareness is the first step to becoming, as we like to say, a Recovering Perfectionist.
This is part two of a three-part series where Erin is joined by business and leadership coach Jess Joswick to discuss perfectionism in all its forms, especially the ones we don’t want to confront.
With a special emphasis on the habits and mindsets that seem “normal” but are actually perfectionism in disguise, this episode helps you to discover what your particular perfectionistic tendencies are and begin brainstorming their sustainable replacements.
ICYMI – Your Post-Episode Homework:
Ask yourself two questions, marinate on your responses, and journal specific actions steps you’ll take as a result:
1) Do I identify with perfectionism? (Have I been in tinkering mode on any project? Have I been thinking and thinking about a specific project or tasks that need to get off my plate?)
2) Is anyone on my team dealing with perfectionism? (Are they working a lot of long hours? Are they experiencing black and white thinking? Are they truly working more than anybody else on your team, but the results just aren't there?)
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Connect with Erin Diehl:
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Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
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Episode 150 Transcription
Erin (00:00):
Welcome to the Improve It Podcast.
Erin (00:10):
Oh my gosh, improve it peeps. We are back today with more from Jess Joss, if you missed the first episode with Jess, it's episode 1 49, the Reasons Perfectionism is Harmful for Leaders with Jess. Just wait, check that out. And I really wanted you from that episode to think about your own self when it comes to perfectionism. Are you leading with it? How is that impacting you? How is that impacting your team? And if you're not, oh my gosh, I'm so happy, but maybe you've been led by a leader who has perfectionism tendencies, and I want you to think about how that felt to be led by that leader. And I want us today to really take a look at how to identify perfectionism in yourself and your team. Jess is gonna dive into that topic. I'm so thrilled to have her on this show. Jess is a business coach, and she has got some amazing tools to help you identify perfectionism in yourself and your team. So if you were struggling with a question from episode 1 49, today, we are gonna dive deeper into this topic. Let's keep improving it with Jess Josswick.
Erin (01:26):
We're talking about owning your perfectionism, owning your stance. In this perfectionism we're talking about identifying it in ourselves and then identifying in the people you serve or the people you lead. And I love this so much. So talk to me about identifying perfectionism in ourselves. What are some of the signals to know if you're plagued with perfectionism, I keep you, I use this alliteration with these words. But how do you know? What are some of the signals? And then I wanna talk about how, let, let's start there. Yeah. How, how do we identify it?
Jess (02:10):
<Laugh>. I love alliteration too, so Yes. I'm loving, I'm, I'm loving that. So some things that we can start to identify for ourselves if you're working alone or, or not really is definitely sitting on projects. Definitely if you are endless in endless tinkering mode if you are an endless I ideation you are just thinking and thinking about something and going through all the ins and outs. It could be this, it could be that, it could be whatever. This happens so often with my clients and I catch myself doing it too. We think that we need to have a plus work right out of the gate. But we just don't have time for that, that, you know, and, and most organizations don't either. If we've got a bold new initiative or a new, you know, policy to put out there or a new campaign it's not gonna get any better.
Jess (03:13):
There's a point of no return of diminishing returns is what I mean. Where, you know, thinking about it and planning for it and all of this pre-work is not helpful and is not giving you more information than you would get from sending it out into the world and fixing the problems later. And so I think that we can really learn from the tech industry, not on everything for sure, but on the, the, you know, the lean startup method and getting the quick start, like, yeah, get it out there, you know, get the prototype basically out there and then, and then debug it, you know, and then fix the problems that, that you see.
Erin (03:54):
I love that. It's like building the plane while flying it mentality.
Jess (03:58):
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. the other, you know, the other thing I see a lot is kind of an all or nothing way of thinking about anything really. Like this project's success determines my own career trajectory. Like, if I don't, you know, if this doesn't work, then I'm, I'm done. <Laugh>, you know, this is a, this is the end of the road for me. Black and white thinking is again, you know, we're trying to attain something that does not exist, and we're assuming that there's one way to do it. So, which is, I mean, again, 99.9% of the time is not true at all.
Erin (04:44):
Yeah. That is so awesome. I love these, I love the, the tinkering, the thinking and thinking. And I love that you said most organizations don't have time to deal with perfectionism. That is huge. It's so big. And I will tell you as a, you're a small business owner too. Like, I have learned that the hard way. I have fit <laugh> so much time, just tweet making a document. Beautiful and truly, I think having a podcast, if I'm gonna be real with everyone, has been the greatest lesson in letting go of control. Because you have to let it, you have to give an episode every week. And sometimes it's not perfect, and the show notes aren't perfect and the graphics need tweaking, but you gotta put it out, you know, so
Jess (05:32):
Exactly.
Erin (05:32):
It's, it's, it is a for sure lesson in getting over and, and I think it's, you know, this my way or the highway notion that you mentioned, that in itself feels really lonely. Imagine, you know, the possibilities for people out there listening who are perfectionists when you can let go and you can build that plane with other people. A, it's more fun to celebrate the success. But b, you have more ideas to choose from. You don't have to rely on yourself as much. Which is so interesting because it goes back to the conversation we had about ego. It's the ego thinking, oh, I know everything when we, none of us know anything. We're all improvising. That's what I <laugh> and that's what I told my team someday days, I'm like, this is all made up. Like we're making it up as we go. And that's what we teach. And also every business in the world is made up. Do you realize that? And so it's just, it's so true. It this,
Jess (06:36):
But it's so true.
Erin (06:37):
People have, for years have had to let go of this idea of perfectionism, otherwise nothing would get done. But I, I really want this conversation to hit for so many people, because not only do we see perfectionism in ourselves, and you're, we're hitting on those buttons right now, how to acknowledge that we can ha we are perfectionists. And maybe you're listening and none of these resonate. So good for you. Send this episode to somebody who needs it. <Laugh>.
Jess (07:04):
Yeah. Let us know how you got that way. Like what did you do in life? <Laugh>? What
Erin (07:10):
Was your childhood like? <Laugh>.
Jess (07:12):
Yeah. Made you so good at that. <Laugh>,
Erin (07:14):
I love it. And then, okay, but I wanna know too, how do you know if your team, someone on your team, cuz we have so many people who lead teams on this podcast, who listen in and they want these tips. So Jess, we need you. How <laugh>, how do we identify perfectionism from a team member? How can you identify that?
Jess (07:40):
So the, the clearest, one of the clearest signs is long hours and, and just overwork the cause of that can be a lot of things. But if it's just one person who's tinkering away with things, you know, late into the night or on the weekends, or, you know, bothering other people at strange hours, then we likely have a perfectionist at work here. And the, the approach that I, I recommend for all communication with your team is, is radical candor. You know, it really is honesty about what the problem is and not making it make, not making the person, the human the problem, but that they're, the way that they're approaching their work is a problem for the company. And, and so really contextualizing the behavior rather than demonizing the person. That's really, really key because again, they've learned that that's how they get success and are safe, you know, so that's the line of thinking when we're, when anyone is, is going for perfection, they're like, well, no one said anything and I'm, I continue to be successful, so it must be because I'm always giving, you know, 180%.
Jess (08:55):
And that's actually, so they don't realize what's the case? Like, what, what is going on here? Also, you know, just in a, looking at everything from a wide lens it's also you see it in the, in your company culture. And this can be a little bit more difficult to, you know, to, to identify if you're at the top. But, you know I think you know, intuitively empathetically, if you are having regular meetings with your team, you know, when there's something off in the culture, you know and so I'm actually gonna read this stat just to make sure that I get it right. But in 2020, researchers found from studying 414 Iranian bank employees that workaholic behavior such as perfectionism and work addiction, strongly predicted workplace incivility, which that's a great phrase, <laugh>, workplace incivility hostility, privacy, invasion, exclusionary behavior, and gossiping. So if there's, I mean, you know, I don't think I've worked at a place that didn't have gossip <laugh>. Yeah. You know I think that's always gonna be there to a certain degree. But if it's, I've definitely worked at places where it was more insidious and meaner honestly than than other places. And those were definitely the places where, you know, we just couldn't get anything done <laugh> on the timeline.
Erin (10:28):
Yeah. Oh, that's huge. Okay. I love all this. I love this ways of identifying. It's funny you mentioned radical candor. We had Kim Scott on this show twice. Oh,
Jess (10:40):
Nice.
Erin (10:40):
Yes. And love that book. So we'll link to those episodes in the show notes too. So if you wanna hear more about Radical Candor, I love that topic, and I love that we can see this not only just an individuals, but we can feel it in the air at our organizations and healthy cultures. In my, this is my personal opinion, but I don't think anybody will disagree. Healthy, healthy cultures of healthy boundaries. And I have worked for companies that have great boundaries, and I've worked for a company that had the worst boundaries. And I will tell you, perfectionism is just everything, productivity, motivation, inspiration, innovation, all motivations are stifled. When you don't feel safe and heard and seen and like you matter if you feel like another cog in the wheel, just so to speak, like that is demoralizing. And that's where when we think about just perfectionism, that's where I think, and tell me if, if this might sound true to you, but perfectionists can hide in those cultures.
Jess (12:00):
Hmm. Yes. Totally. Totally. In, in the cultures where basically innovation is not innovation. Stifled. Yes. Because everybody is afraid. Everybody's operating from fear. So the perfectionist is like, yeah, I'm used to this. I've, you know, I, I this is what work is supposed to be. You know, you're supposed to be afraid that you're gonna get it wrong because that's how they operate all the time.
Erin (12:28):
Oh my God. Right?
Jess (12:29):
So yeah.
Erin (12:30):
How would you, okay, so let's say for the perfectionists listening today, who is listening and nodding their head, like, this is where I work, they're talking about me. Is this the Truman Show? What <laugh> how could you assist this person and tell them it's so much better the other way around? How do you, how do you help this person get out of this rut?
Jess (12:59):
Yes. So, you know, the first thing I would say is it, it's depending on where you are in an organization, it can be difficult to change the external, difficult to deny impossible <laugh>. Yeah. It's like, it's not gonna happen at some places, you know, and you just, you, you can't operate in your, to be your full self there. And, but if, if you are like, okay, I, it's me, I'm the problem. You know, and it feels like it's only me.
Erin (13:31):
It's a Taylor Swift song. It's, it's a Taylor Swift, it's
Jess (13:34):
Taylor Swift song. Yeah. I'm the problem. Yeah. Then I, I really advocate for going back to your, what, what your commitments are personally and professionally. Like, what is your commitment to your mission and your impact? And really get clear about that. Clear about like what hits home for you? Why are you doing the work that you're doing? It's not just to run the next campaign really well, or get this project off the ground or whatever it is. Like, those are all like, relatively short-term goals. Your long-term goal is, you know, what is, what is the impact of your life really? Like, just to put all of this into perspective, our, our jobs, our careers are such a big part of how we spend our time. And so if you don't have that, everyone has that, I argue. But if you don't know it, then you need to start articulating it for yourself.
Jess (14:36):
And you know, once you, once you have that especially if you're a leader, you are able to you, you, you kind of realize the urgency, honestly. Like, well, this is what we're trying to do. Because you can make some concrete goals from that big sort of lofty, like, this is what I'm doing with my life and my business statement. That's where I always start with my clients. Like, where are you going, <laugh>? What's your whole life about <laugh>? Yeah. You know, what do you want? And then we start, okay, well what, what are your annual goals? Like, we, so there are practical steps that come out of that, but you have to start with the big stuff. So so because you have, now you've got the practical steps, you've got, you know, where you wanna be in a year or what your, you know, company's revenue goal is. Like, you can be like, oh, okay, well, I'm like, we need to get on that. Like, we just, we don't have more time. Like,
Erin (15:34):
Yeah. Yes.
Jess (15:35):
So where is the breakdown in the way that we're operating? Like, where are we super inefficient, which is a big thing for me. It's like one of my top strengths. <Laugh> and Clifton strengths. Yeah. So, you know, having that commitment and then having habits that really cultivate self-acceptance and that cultivate a, a plan a way to work that works for you. That is, a lot of us don't think about that because we're just on autopilot, again, of what we've learned in our, in our careers, you know? But we can actually design what works for us. Even if you work at a big company, you know, to a certain extent you can, you can give yourself what you need to do, what you need to do every day. I call that personal management, like self-management, basically.
Erin (16:26):
Yes, I'm here for that. Jess <laugh>, we are for that.
Erin (16:40):
Improve it peeps. Jess is unbelievable. I'm loving this conversation and I want you to take away some of the things that she talked about today. How to identify perfectionism in yourself, how to identify perfectionism in your team, and if you notice yourself doing any of these things. So really ask yourself two questions. The first question is, do I identify with perfectionism? Have I been in tinkering mode on any project? Have I been thinking and thinking about Pacific Project or tasks that needs to get off my plate? Second question, is anyone on my team suffering that I can bring to mind? Are they working a lot of long hours? Are they having this black and white thinking? Are they truly working more than anybody else on your team? But the results just aren't there? I want you to really think about those two questions. Are you a perfectionist or is there anybody that you are leading who is dealing with perfectionism?
Erin (17:44):
Think about those two questions. I want you to marinate. We're gonna come back here and we're, we're gonna listen to episode 1 51 with Jess, where we're gonna talk even more about perfectionism and how to turn into a recovering perfectionist, my friends, thanks so much for listening to this show. As always, if it moved you or if you think it can move somebody else, please share it. Consider leaving a review on iTunes. And no, that I want you to keep feeling, keep improving because this world needs that very, very special it that only you can bring. I will see you here next tomorrow, not next week, tomorrow. I'll see you here tomorrow. Bye. Hey, friend, did you enjoy today's show? If so, head on over to iTunes to rate and subscribe. So you never miss an episode. Now, did I mention that when you leave a five star review of the Improve It podcast, an actual team of humans does a happy dance? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>? That's right. So leave a review for us on iTunes, screenshot it, and send me an email at info Learn to improve it.com. I'll send you a personalized video back as a thank you. Thanks so much for listening. Improve It Peeps. I'll see you next Wednesday.