Episode 216: How Does a Four-Day Work Week Impact Your Team? with Special Guest, Jenna McDonnell
Working one less day a week sounds nice in theory, but is it actually possible?
In today’s episode, Erin and VP of Client Experience Jenna McDonnell talk about the why behind improve it!’s decision to move to a four-day work week, how they did it, and the changes they’ve noticed since.
If you're curious about a four-day work week—this is the episode for you.
ICYMI – Your Post-Episode Homework: Share this episode with a friend.
Show Links:
Check out improve it! Four-Day Work Week Manifesto here
Purchase the I See You Meditation Album
Pre-order Erin’s newest book, I See You! A Leader’s Guide to Energizing Your Team through Radical Empathy
Get our free 4-Step Consistency Planner here
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Send a question/voice message on SpeakPipe here.
Want to book Erin to speak at your organization or large-scale event: Learn more here.
Connect with Jenna McDonnell:
Jenna’s LinkedIn
Connect with Erin Diehl:
@itserindiehl on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
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Episode 216 Transcription
Erin Diehl (00:02.794)
Improva Peeps, welcome to the show. I'm Erin Deal, and if you are new here, welcome. If you are an OG Improva Peep, you are gonna love this episode. If you're new here, you're gonna love this episode. I am so excited for today's guest, but before we dive in, just a quick housekeeping item. If you have not gotten the four-step consistency planner yet,
make sure to get yours. It is in the link in the show notes and it is absolutely free. It is an amazing resource to help you get back into a routine and stick with that routine. And it teaches you how to do that in just four easy steps. So this episode is airing mid December as we head into the new year. This is a great opportunity for you to get a consistent routine in place and actually stick to it. So make sure you go to the link in the show notes to get yours.
And I wanna just preface today's show by saying it's gonna be a little bit different. I have the one, the only, Jenna McDonald on the show. And we are going to do a follow-up episode today from episode 210, which was called Work Less, Achieve More, Tales from a Four-Day Workweek. Jenna is the VP of Client Experience. You're talking to a VIP.
And if you have ever reached out to Improve It, chances are you have talked to Jenna. So welcome Jenna to the Improve It podcast again.
Jenna McDonnell (01:39.35)
Thank you! Yes, great to be back!
Erin Diehl (01:42.302)
I know, you've probably been on the show what? Like this is maybe the third time?
Jenna McDonnell (01:46.282)
Yeah, I think it is the third time.
Erin Diehl (01:48.35)
Okay, and we're happy to have you, per always. So tell, for anyone not listening who hasn't heard any of your prior episodes, a little bit about you and your role at Improve It.
Jenna McDonnell (02:00.034)
So I'm the VP of client experience, as Erin said, and in my role, like she said, if you've reached out to us, you've most likely, 99% of the time, have probably talked to me first. I'm basically the first point of contact, is what I like to say at Improve It. So in my role, I research and reach out to organizations and people that we'd like to work with, as well as...
take all the incoming conversations with people who reach out to work with us. So all of the initial calls, walking everyone through the process of what it's like to work with us, proposals, the agreements, the invoices, all of that stuff, and then helping my colleague, Nicole, with logistics, although less so now, which is great because Nicole's so good at it.
for all of our events and then all the follow-up that comes from that. So just maintaining those relationships with our clients. And then the other small part of my role that I really like is being able to help manage the day-to-day of just our work at Improve It. So helping to organ, I'm an organizational communication background. So I love all that stuff. So helping to make sure that the day-to-day runs smoothly.
working on building our culture as an organization, all that stuff internally.
Erin Diehl (03:22.458)
She does it all. There are not enough lines on her resume to show you what she does. But as a small business, every single thing that you just mentioned matters so much and we couldn't do it without you. So know that. And I'm thrilled to have you back because like you said, you love sort of that organizational management piece. And so today's show really aligns with that because
In episode 210 of the Improve It podcast, I talked about our five-step framework to implementing the four-day work week based off the book Shorter. And if you haven't again listened to that episode, go back and listen to it because it is going to, this episode is a follow-up.
from that show and we'll share a link to our four day work week manifesto also that we created and drop that in the show notes here as well. Jenna actually created our four day work week manifesto and part of that manifesto talked about measuring results. So just to catch everyone up, we are on a four day work week plan that started in October of 2023.
and we are trialing this for the next 90 days. We're recording today's episode the first week of December and it's gonna launch the next week. So it's gonna be mid December. So we're not exactly through the first final days, but we wanted to share an update. And I thought a great place to start would be this survey that you created Jenna, that we take at the end of every 30 days.
And I wanted to use that survey as the guide for our discussion today. So a quick just synopsis of our survey. Jenna created this survey so we can track our soft skills, I should say, our qualitative data that will allow us to understand are we improving from a quality of life standpoint? And...
Erin Diehl (05:31.058)
We are tracking that at the end of the first 30 days, the end of the 60 days, and at the end of the 90 days. So the first question on our survey asks us to rate how happy we are in our role from one to 10. Can you just dive into why you put this as the first question and why it's so important?
Jenna McDonnell (05:49.886)
Yeah, well, first of all, I think a better description of me creating it, the whole team created it. I just like begged to be the person in charge of it. I just really like it was like a little passion project doing this. So I'm very happy that everyone let me let me just like summarize everything that we talked about as a team into the manifesto and everything. But the survey was something that was absolutely in the book.
Erin Diehl (05:59.998)
Yes.
Jenna McDonnell (06:18.346)
a big part of the shorter book was making sure that you're including everyone on the team and measuring, making sure that you're tracking things and not just professional goals that you have, but also how the team is feeling. And I think a lot of people had a hard year in 2023. I think a lot of people on our team, I think all of us internally have had some difficulties this year. And in addition to the pandemic, just
kind of shedding new light on priorities. I think this year also showed us all that there is an opportunity to pursue well-being a little bit more and to prioritize being happy. So I feel like measuring that was the first question because it's helping us track if having more control over our time outside of work, having more time to decide what we wanna do like the whole Friday to do.
do whatever we need to do, if that increases our happiness, if that allows us to enjoy our time at work a lot and also our time away from work.
Erin Diehl (07:26.314)
I love it. And I'm so glad you took on this passion project because we, you know, Jenna, there, I love, like I love that my weaknesses are your strengths, okay? So that number one. And then number two, we also had this one to 10 scale, one being unhappy, 10 being happy. And I think, like you said, we pulled a lot from this book shorter. So we'll also link that.
Jenna McDonnell (07:30.146)
Ha ha ha!
Erin Diehl (07:52.894)
in the show notes for you too, so you can take a look at how we have gotten all of this data and how we have put it together for ourselves and we have to make it work for you. One of the questions I also really love in the survey is how burnt out and how optimistic are you? These are two separate questions, but we talk about measuring burnout and measuring our optimism, which also kind of goes into happy, but we say let's rate that on a one to 10 scale.
Why was that question so important in measuring our success? And talk a little bit about how we got to that question, if you can.
Jenna McDonnell (08:30.538)
Yeah, well, I again, like it's the same, it's kind of the same how the pandemic life events, just figuring out that we can have, or thinking that we could maybe have a different relationship to work. I feel like has been something that was on our minds as a team, like so many other organizations, but we hadn't necessarily taken like a big step to see what we could do to change burnout.
I think that we wanted that question to be on the survey because burnout isn't, it isn't just a buzzword right now, or it hasn't been a buzzword for the past four years. It's been a real thing that I know I've experienced, I know you've experienced it. I know so many people have experienced it and I know that it, it shows up in different ways for people. But I...
in the book and I talk about this book so much since you had us read it. Like I really it's probably annoying people in my life just because I recommend it to everyone who even asks anything about work. I tell them to read this book but I really enjoyed it and there was a quote and I don't remember the exact quote but I remember the essence of it and it was something like done is unattainable like it's an unattainable state to be done and that just like hit me.
as a phrase because burnout for me comes from being stressed out, which comes from me feeling like I don't have enough time to do what I need to do, or I put a lot of pressure on myself to achieve things. And when it doesn't happen right away, the stress comes and then the burnout comes. And measuring burnout and asking us how we're doing with burnout, I think will tell us or hopefully will tell us.
If we prioritize what needs to be done and focus on focus and the important work and allow the fact that done is an unattainable state to like be a fact and still choose to step away, will we feel less burnt out? Will we be able to achieve still but will we like the mindset that we have as a team and as individuals on the team, will that be healthier?
Erin Diehl (10:41.009)
Uh...
Jenna McDonnell (10:51.094)
So that's why we included the burnout. And I think you're right. Optimism is a big part of kind of like the happy question, but I think it's also along with burnout. I know for myself, if I'm burnt out, I don't feel like myself. I don't feel like a positive person. I feel negative, disconnected, numb. Like I can't give anything and I can't even enjoy the good things. And so if we're left burnt out, I think burnout and optimism.
are definitely correlated and I think they will increase with each other.
Erin Diehl (11:26.782)
Yes. Oh my God. I can't wait to look at all of our stats and statistics and look at all this. Well, and I got to tell you too, like it really, that quote, it's so funny. First and foremost, let's just start with this. I read that book first and I did not want to just be the only one who read it. I'm so grateful that you and the team read the book as well because look at the takeaways that you took away. I, that...
Jenna McDonnell (11:31.735)
I'm sorry.
Erin Diehl (11:54.582)
That quote, I remember now that you said it, it hits me harder now that you've said it than I read it in the book. And so I think for us specifically, like I know you and I are both achievers. We love to achieve. I like a zero inbox at all times. It's just not possible with where we're at right now. It's just not possible. And I think exactly what you said, it's actually allowed me when I think about that question specifically.
to let some things be and focus on the priorities as my priorities, not what my inbox dictates. And I've actually become more productive because I've allowed less to get done that isn't a top priority. So that's an interesting twist, I think, to that question and why we're measuring it because it has shifted my, it's a...
It's a paradigm shift. So I feel like that has actually been something that I didn't even realize until this very moment has happened in my own personal journey with this four-day work week. So I want to go back to the survey because you crushed it. And it asks about how have you, another question is, how have you been sleeping and how have you been feeling physically? Have you specifically, Jenna, noticed any shifts since we started going to four days?
Jenna McDonnell (13:17.942)
Yeah, I have. I've noticed that both in my responses to the survey and just my daily experience of being me, I've noticed that I have something that's been a goal of mine for probably two years has been to have a stronger evening routine.
and morning, but I felt a little more connected to my morning routine than like having an evening routine on work days. And I have noticed that over the past two, two and a half months, I've been really dedicated to like, from the physical perspective, like I've been really dedicated to preserving and like reserving my gym time.
Like this is the time when I'm going to be active because I am sitting at a desk. I mean, sometimes I stand at my desk, but it's not, you know, it's not an active, physically active job. So I've been really, I've like reserved that time and been committed to it and have turned down making plans or talking myself out of it. And it's made me feel really good because then I sleep better if I move my body, you know, you feel more exhausted at the end of the day, which is great.
And I think it's helped with my morning routine too, in terms of waking up, getting on a walk. I mean, it's getting colder in Chicago, so we'll see how long that lasts. But the moving the body, I think, is something that I've been able to prioritize more because I know that on the weekends, I'll have plenty of time to be social and to make those plans and to rest. So if I commit to like these four days at least, to move my body and to be active,
I think that that's really helpful. And then also from like the health perspective and logistically having Fridays off to schedule doctor appointments is really big. I don't know how we do it without that honestly and not feel like you're falling behind. So there is like a more of a focus on taking care of yourself physically. I feel like we've all had more appointments over the past couple of months and we haven't really missed out on work with like the exception of
Erin Diehl (15:22.488)
Yeah.
Jenna McDonnell (15:34.85)
one time I couldn't get a Friday appointment. But it's impossible to not be, it's impossible to not, or to make appointments if you don't have this time, I feel like.
Erin Diehl (15:47.794)
Oh my gosh. First of all, it's always the dentists that you can't get into on a Friday. Okay, because dentists, they figured this out a long time ago, okay? Dentists were like, I'm only working four days a week and I'm taking Fridays off. And just in case you haven't listened to episode 210, we as a team collectively all decided to take Fridays off. So I just wanna make that clear too. Fridays are the day that we collectively said, we had already had no meeting Fridays. So that was already a thing where you can't.
Jenna McDonnell (15:51.246)
I'm sorry.
Jenna McDonnell (16:00.878)
I'm going to go to bed.
Erin Diehl (16:16.054)
have a meeting internally or externally. It was always a catch-up day administratively. And we decided Friday was the best day. And so Jenna, I love that because I think I've noticed like you are feeling better because you have that gym time in the evenings and you are getting more sleep. And I feel I need to work on my evening routine. That's just like something, that's my own job. Okay, this has nothing to do with the four-day work week. But Friday.
I want to ask you this. I'm going to just tell my version of what my Fridays have become in the past 60 days. And then I want to hear what your Fridays have become. Because I think that's interesting for people to hear. My Fridays, because I have a son, are like, what does Jackson need? Does he need a doctor's appointment on Friday? It's Friday. What do I need to get done for my house? Do I need to go grocery shopping at Trader Joe's because they don't have Instacart? Yes, I probably do.
do I need to take, do I need to get my, you know, my own appointments on that day? They become a day of appointments. And it also becomes a day if I have to sit on the computer for a couple of hours and do some accounting work or catching up. Like, and that's something I wanna just be clear with everyone on too. We also said, and we said in our manifesto, we are checking emails on Fridays at 11 a.m., whatever our respective time zone is, and at 4 p.m. So if something...
from a client needs to be addressed. We will address it via email, but it's usually 30 minutes, either time, it's like an hour a day of checking email and you can do that anywhere at any time. So for me, my Fridays look like a lot of appointments or grocery shopping or administrative life stuff, and then probably realistically one to two hours of checking email or doing some task that takes a lot of concentration at my desk.
Tell me what your Friday looks like.
Jenna McDonnell (18:07.662)
Yeah, I mean, there are definitely similarities. So I will say, yeah, like I, some weeks, not every week, I have therapy on Fridays now, which is great. And I don't feel like I'm taking time outside of work or outside of like going to the gym or something. Like it's its own time now. Other appointments that I need to make, absolutely like the life admin is a big part of Fridays. Ideally everyone.
Erin Diehl (18:16.065)
Yep.
Jenna McDonnell (18:36.262)
has shorter work weeks and all of that and this point will become obsolete but because other people are working it is like my time for me so I make all the appointments but I also if I have time outside of that yeah grocery shopping working out I love going to a coffee shop and reading or like you said doing a little bit of work one Friday I took a call
which was not the normal Friday for the past couple of months. And that resulted in, in a new client for us. So it was well worth it. It was a great conversation and it was an hour of my time factoring in my followup after the conversation and the next week, you know, we, we ended up being able to, to execute an agreement with them and everything. I also feel like Fridays have become days where I do some like
life brainstorming. Sometimes it's related to work, other times it's just a time for me to just think. So yeah, it's life admin, rest, working out, me time is what Fridays are.
Erin Diehl (19:40.331)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (19:46.938)
Ugh, I love it. I love it. And you know what? I wanna piggyback off that. And this is also said in the book and it's part of our manifesto that the best ideas come to you when you're not sitting at your desk in front of your computer. And I have been a testament to that. This past Friday, I...
specifically got so many downloads driving to and from a lunch, and I had lunch with some colleagues here in Charleston on Friday, like I'll reserve more relationship building things for Fridays as well. I had so many just great ideas pop up in my brain as I was in the car that I had to pull out my Evernote notebook on my phone and record voice notes to like remember these ideas. And I was just, you just gained so much clarity.
when you step away from the day to day. And that's what these Fridays have become, I feel like for you, for me, Nicole, our team. And I think, like, for example, they can also change this Friday, I'm flying to Denver to see a good friend. And I'm so excited about that. And I'll probably do some work on the plane and have some me time on the way back, but it has really allowed me personally.
to think more clearly, to actually come up with ideas. And I feel like that's the same for you, would you say?
Jenna McDonnell (21:08.818)
Yeah, that was another big part. And I think Nicole maybe was the first one. She pulled a quote from the book and started talking about it. She's so creative. So it makes sense that quote resonated with her. So when we were talking about it as a team before the experiment, she pulled it and mentioned it. And it was, again, I cannot phrase it exactly as it was said, but something about how when you step away and like go on a walk or...
just get up and stop thinking about the problem and trying to find the solution. That's when an idea will come to you. And so I feel like we're giving ourselves that time on Fridays to not be focused on work, but then something will pop in and it'll be like an interesting idea that I'll then just, I'm not a voice note person. I will write it down and then return to on Monday and see if it was any good, but.
Yeah, that creativity, that stepping away piece, I feel like is part of my Fridays as well.
Erin Diehl (22:11.162)
It's so good. It's honestly like I look forward to like I'm gonna say this I thought Fridays were gonna be like this restful peaceful day for me. They're definitely not. I'm definitely getting done a lot of life admin things and it is also like a moment to refresh my mind from work and to have more clarity. But what is wonderful is that because I've done that on Friday I can have Saturday and Sunday.
to actually relax and just be with my family. So, because I felt like a lot of my life personally was going from work to mom and there was no like errand in there ever. And so Friday is like the errand day, you know? So, okay, let me ask you this because this is something else that we rate ourselves on in the survey, how energetic we feel. So how has your energy shifted after going to four days a week? And then...
How has that impacted your Monday?
Jenna McDonnell (23:11.886)
I do feel, I know that this is going to sound like we have no drawbacks to the four day work week. I can, at the end of this, I will share a funny one personally that I did realize, but I really have noticed my energy go up since moving to the shorter work week, the four day work week. I've noticed that when I'm at work,
Erin Diehl (23:18.996)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (23:24.799)
Yes.
Jenna McDonnell (23:39.322)
I honestly feel like more joy at work than I did. And it's not because I wasn't like connected or committed to our work. It probably looks the same on the outside, but like I'm enjoying it more now because it's like, this is my work time. This is when I can use my brain in this way and like really focus in. And I'm not thinking about other things because I can think about the other things on Friday sort of thing. So my energy.
for work is higher. And then I feel like personally it's higher too, because when I step away, I really am like stepping away. And I'm thinking more about the wellbeing, like my whole person, rather than just working and like what I need to accomplish. There's more focus on like investing in myself and figuring out what gives me energy and what maybe takes away energy from me.
And then the Sunday thing, I have so many thoughts on this because I remember reading, like Sunday scaries are such a phrase and I've used them myself. I remember reading on LinkedIn, someone's opinion, they were talking about how if your employees have the Sunday scaries, that's an organizational problem. That's something you need to address as an employer and that's a problem.
And I hear what they were saying, but I do disagree with that. I think there's a lot of reasons why people could be anxious on Sunday. I think that's what Sunday Scaries mean to me, like anxiety for the week ahead. So I've definitely felt those. And I don't think we have that problem at Improve It. Like, I would not place the blame on Improve It for me feeling that way. I think it's a result of feeling like I didn't get to have my whole weekend. And then it's like, oh man, now it's right back to work.
I have all this anxiety about what I didn't get to do. And now I have to think about all this stuff. So it's just like, just where's my anxiety going basically. And that's how I felt with like the Sunday Scaries. So I will say, and we've said this in our Monday meetings, I think all of us have agreed on this. I genuinely feel like ready to work on Mondays. And I've used Sundays, like Sunday evenings. I don't make plans.
Erin Diehl (25:39.49)
Bye.
Jenna McDonnell (26:03.89)
I get prepared, I try to go to bed early, like maybe earlier than during the week even. And I don't feel the same amount of anxiety. I have anxiety, like I do experience that still, that's still a part of my life, but I don't feel the Sunday scaries in the same capacity. And I feel...
I don't really feel them anymore. And I think that's because I felt like I've been able to live over the weekend. And then I'm ready to work and like excited to work.
Erin Diehl (26:34.146)
Oh my god, Jenna! I love it. There's so many. I'm like, where do I start unpacking this? Because it's so good and it's so true. And I had a girlfriend of mine who is a doctor go down to part-time and so that meant for her taking Fridays off. She does a while before we ever did our four days a week. And she's a mom of two. She worked many hours at her private practice, whatever. And
Jenna McDonnell (26:36.374)
Ha ha.
Erin Diehl (27:03.538)
As soon as we started taking Fridays off, I was like, man, why didn't I do this forever ago? She goes, I know. She goes, what's great is you don't have Sunday's scaries because you know you only have four days. And I was like, that's so true because Thursday's the new Friday. And because Sunday, I'm like, you know what? I have rested enough to go back to do my most productive work.
Even though I could make Fridays more peaceful for me without like running around all over the place. Maybe I'll experiment with that soon, but I really do feel like by Sunday night, I've had my time. I've had May Day, because my son is at school and then he comes home and then I see him after that. But, you know, and there could be a Friday that I do something with him too. I have a lot of quality time, him and I together, but I do feel...
Like I don't feel guilty as a mom taking that day for me because if I don't give that to me, I'm gonna be an awful mom in some way because I haven't given to myself first. And I really think it has empowered me in so many ways to show up how I wanna show up. And I think you're right. Like I didn't really realize that until we started going through this. It took me like two Fridays to be like, wow, my Sundays have changed, my Mondays have changed.
Jenna McDonnell (28:23.243)
Mm.
Erin Diehl (28:28.37)
So I feel you too. And I wanna talk about one more thing on our survey because we said at the end of this 90 days, and this is part of our manifesto, we're gonna measure success from the data from the survey that we've collected, but as well as our revenue and overall company success. And we know time will still tell because it is not December 31st, but I wanna just talk about the quality of life piece. It sounds to me.
that this has improved the quality of your life. But I want you to tell me if that is true and then if there are any drawbacks because I think that's important to say too.
Jenna McDonnell (29:03.962)
Mm.
Yeah, it has. It has improved my quality of life. I think that reading that book and then also I went down like a rabbit hole of I went to a webinar where someone else walked through going creating their four-day work week at their small organization and then reading about large companies doing it. I just like there's so many resources out there. A lot of them not in the U.S. some of them in the U.S. but a lot of them in Europe. And so I read a lot of those
And I also just, I do love certain aspects about European cultures. Like I think that there are some ways that they have things right that we have backwards in America, just to be honest. And one of the ways that as an outsider, I perceive some cultures to be better than ours is that just existing is enough. Like you're worth it just by existing and being a person.
You're trying your best. Like you are not earning your place on this earth and your worth by how much money you make, by what you achieve, all of that. And I think even if it sounds obvious, I feel like it's very ingrained in our culture here to value external things.
more than just feeling that you deserve things because you're a human being and you deserve rest and you deserve to just be, and you don't always, you're not what you produce, that kind of thing. I feel like that mindset, I'm still working on it. It's not perfect. I'm still, I still have some guilt that I get to work four days, then I have this time off when sometimes I'm not doing anything. And I'm like, maybe I should just go back.
Jenna McDonnell (30:53.614)
to doing some work or do something else that's productive. But that unproductive time makes me feel better. And so I think like the quality of life there is that there's more time to just be and there's like more value in just being a person. But on that drawback side, it's kind of my relationship with that isn't perfect. And that's something I'm still working on. And I feel like people can relate to that who are going to be listening to this.
We're so focused on what we achieve, what we produce, but there's so much value in just being here and being a person and trying to be a good person that I, that's one thing I've noticed. And another thing, and this is a funny thing I was gonna say, another thing I've noticed, this is like the one con I've noticed personally from Not Working Fridays. And I've told people this and they've laughed, but it's true. You have more opportunity to spend money.
Erin Diehl (31:52.883)
Yeah. Yes!
Jenna McDonnell (31:53.03)
on Fridays. Like, because we're not sitting at our desks working, we're not making less money than we were before, but we're not making more. So there is more opportunity to like treat yourself to things or go shopping or whatever on Fridays than if I was working. So I will say that is something I've noticed that I would not have predicted.
Erin Diehl (32:02.05)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (32:16.03)
You know, Jenna, you are not wrong in that statement. That is a true statement, because I have found a new love of Trader Joe's in this four day work week. I mean, I have like, there's only one Trader Joe's in Charleston. It is a 25 minute drive for me to get to, and it does not have a delivery service, so you have to physically go there. Okay, and so I agree. I'm at Trader Joe's. I'm at like, I wouldn't go to Trader Joe's. Like what, I don't need everything but the bagel dip. I don't.
Jenna McDonnell (32:45.214)
I love you discovering Trader Joe's in this. Ha!
Erin Diehl (32:47.814)
Oh God, I know. That was my own self discovery. Trader Joe's is my love language now. And I will tell you, I had Trader Joe's, you know what it is? It's the scarcity mindset. Okay, number one about, I'm gonna go to Trader Joe's transit for just one minute. In Chicago, where you and I met and I lived for 15 years, there was a Trader Joe's on every corner almost. In Charleston, there's one. And you know what? The parking lot they've made extra small. So you feel like everybody's at Trader Joe's.
And when you go inside, it's big. There's not a ton of people in there, but they make it look hoppin' every day. And you're like, I gotta get there. And then once you get that little dip, they got the best dips. Once you get that little dip, and once you get those little cut up mangoes, get you some everything but the bagel bagels, for that are gluten free, the gluten free bread, you know, I'm a gluten free. It's worth it. It makes it worth it to me, but I am spending money.
Jenna McDonnell (33:42.974)
Yeah, and this is so not the point, but just to plug Trader Joe's further, they're, uh, being, having celiac, and I know you're feeling better not eating gluten, like being people who buy gluten-free products, their bread is bigger than my hand, and that is so important to me because so many gluten-free breads, if people have bought gluten-free bread, they will relate to this, are the size of a thimble.
Erin Diehl (33:47.934)
Yeah, we would like a sponsorship. Thank you. Keep going.
Erin Diehl (34:12.543)
Yes.
Jenna McDonnell (34:13.736)
and $10 for a loaf. And Trader Joe's, it's a steal.
Erin Diehl (34:15.314)
Yes. It's a steal. And like, here's the other thing really quick, just last Trader Joe's tangent. This is not a show promoting Trader Joe's. We do not have affiliate links. If someone listening works at Trader Joe's, please contact us. I would love to promote your products. Anyway, let me just say this last thing. They make me feel like a chef, OK, in my own home because of the prepackaged meals.
Jenna McDonnell (34:20.418)
Hahaha!
Erin Diehl (34:39.986)
My four year old is like, mom, you're the best cook. And all I did was pour it from the bag onto the stove top. And I just feel amazing because they've made me feel amazing. So you know what I go there for? I go there to feel good about myself, Trayvon knows. And I will spend, I will take two bags, four bags of groceries. And they're not, I'm gonna be honest, they've got some good deals. They're not an expensive place. Back to the point at hand. We had to go there, but.
Jenna McDonnell (34:51.191)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna McDonnell (35:04.158)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (35:07.386)
I agree with you that could be the con and I also hear you on the guilt because I also.
Erin Diehl (35:16.278)
You know, I have a lot of feelings about how I show up in a lot of different ways to a lot of different people. And a lot of companies don't have this in their life and probably will never implement. And so it is a gift, but it is the gift that we are giving ourselves so that we can give to others. And we're going to continue to experiment with this. And we'll know by the end of December where we're going in 2024, which...
We've heard from Jenna, we've heard from, you've heard a little bit from me is, the quality of life has really shifted and I think we all don't want it to go away because it's so good and we've really enjoyed the learning and the experimenting that we've done. If you are listening and you want some advice to successfully test this for yourself and your team, Jenna, what is something that you would say to anybody listening? A place to start.
Jenna McDonnell (36:13.096)
one thing.
Erin Diehl (36:14.792)
Or where's one place they could start if they wanna implement this for their team?
Jenna McDonnell (36:20.514)
Well...
I do think that what we're talking about right now, like the mindset piece is a really big part of it. I do feel like that, I feel like, I'm so grateful that you made us feel like we were, like we were part of the whole process and decision, like the whole team. And I feel like the book we read shorter says that is a.
Erin Diehl (36:33.026)
Yeah.
Jenna McDonnell (36:49.394)
a big part of making this a success is making the team feel like they have helped you create this and making sure that their input is actually like implemented. So I feel like trying to, I guess, get the team's responses as to why they would want to do this and understand, I think a good place to start is asking yourself why.
Erin Diehl (37:10.123)
Yeah.
Jenna McDonnell (37:15.934)
you would want to introduce this if you're a leader or if you're like an individual contributor asking why this sounds appealing to you. And then if you're comfortable with it, if you're not a leader, or even if you're just talking with your friends, like asking them why they would like to do this, if they would like to do this, and kind of just pulling people to get the why. I feel like that's what we did.
And then we went from there in terms of like setting goals and tracking things and updating how our meetings are run and blocking our calendars and, and all of the, the tangible action items that you need to do and like contingency plans and all of that. But I think we started with the why we want to do it and why it's important to us and that helped us create all the specific plans.
Erin Diehl (38:08.818)
Yeah, oh, I love that. The why is so important because it fuels everything else. And one thing just to point out to your point is we didn't really rush into this. We spent about 60 days planning, right? It was about two months of planning and knowing we were gonna trial it for 90 days and we were gonna set up metric systems in place to track how we were feeling, qualitative feeling, and then also track it.
Jenna McDonnell (38:14.126)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna McDonnell (38:23.786)
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Erin Diehl (38:35.606)
with the measurement of success from a revenue, from a productivity standpoint. A lot of things go into that, but I will say, I actually feel more productive than I've ever felt in a four-day work week. Would you agree with that?
Jenna McDonnell (38:51.754)
Yeah, I would. I feel like I'm using my time. Yeah, and another thing from the book. This guy should really, like, we should be ambassadors for this. Honestly, I did really love it because it uses design thinking to help you develop a plan or introduce this idea. And I feel like that's really helpful for conceptualizing how to make it happen. But one thing that I've...
Erin Diehl (39:01.642)
We could have them on the show at this point. Yeah, yeah.
Jenna McDonnell (39:20.938)
relates to this is the idea that you're... I lost my train of thought. As I was talking about the book, I was thinking about how great it would be to be an ambassador and I just like fully lost my train of thought.
Jenna McDonnell (39:39.502)
I'm sorry.
Erin Diehl (39:42.208)
You know what though, this is real. This is real and it happens in real life, but we're not ending it out. Okay. We can lose our train of thought at any time and it's totally normal, but you should be a brand ambassador for the book shorter is what you're saying. Should we get, can we? Yes, we need to have Alex on the show. Alex.
Jenna McDonnell (39:51.815)
just using filler words.
Jenna McDonnell (39:57.182)
or how he should be on the, yeah. Yeah, no, I remember, gosh, that's embarrassing. But yeah, being able to focus and being productive. That's what you were talking about. Yes, a big part of it is not figuring out how to do, this is what I was gonna say, not figuring out how to do five days of work in four days, but figuring out what's important and like cutting things out that aren't, I'm not gonna say moving the needle because that's too.
Erin Diehl (40:19.128)
Yes.
Jenna McDonnell (40:26.902)
to Dargany, but. Yeah, I think that was a big mindset shift. I didn't think about that before. Like when I heard four day work week, I just thought, yeah, you figure out how to do the same amount of work in fewer days. But no, it's about prioritizing things and being the most productive you can be, which sometimes means taking away things that weren't making a difference.
Erin Diehl (40:27.786)
It's too corporaty, but we say that and it's true though. It's so true.
Erin Diehl (40:55.662)
Totally, totally. And I truly assess that with every single thing that I spend time on now. And if it's not moving the needle, I said it. If it's not moving the needle, how should I reprioritize this? And I feel like this, the fact that we are setting boundaries here allows me to set boundaries in other areas of my life because boundaries are hard for me as a recovering people pleaser. And I feel like this has really
Jenna McDonnell (41:04.706)
Ah, ah, ah.
Erin Diehl (41:25.794)
helped me stay on track. And it maybe takes me a while longer with some areas, but it really does make me really understand the value of time and the value of prioritization and the value of measuring, right? And understanding, which is why we have this survey that we've created. This is why we're measuring success from a qualitative and quantitative state.
Jenna McDonnell (41:44.373)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Diehl (41:53.026)
And it's allowing us to reflect. Like we have so much more reflection time now and I have time away from the work that I'm able to reflect that I feel like for us, it's been a win across the board. Time will tell. We'll let you know, Improve It Peeps at the end of December, but you've heard all the facts here and you've heard all of the amazing information from Jenna and I'm so grateful that you came on this show again. Is there any last thing you wanna share with the Improve It Peeps before we go?
Jenna McDonnell (42:05.28)
Mm-hmm.
Jenna McDonnell (42:11.587)
Hehehe
Jenna McDonnell (42:24.77)
I love, yeah, I loved this conversation. I genuinely, I love talking about how, I like nerding out about how organizations are structured and the processes that go into that. Like I get a kick out of that. So it's very fun to talk about. I'm trying to think if there's anything else that was like a big takeaway on this. I like what you said about the prep. I think that was another, that's another thing to answer your previous question. I think-
not jumping right into it as appealing as it sounds, taking your time and looking at the resources and thinking about how you would do it before making any changes, I think is important. And I think the final thing I'll add to this conversation is that it's not perfect. Like, there's, there's so many ways to improve how you work and the processes that you use and
the offerings that you provide, like there are so many improvements that can always be made. So I feel like it's just thinking about which ones are most important and also being open to making those changes. Like, I don't think we're, I think we're open to going with the flow and figuring out how to further optimize this. Ha ha ha.
Erin Diehl (43:45.646)
Yeah, oh, she is dropping buzzwords. She is moving the needle while optimizing, while synergizing and strategizing, okay? Jenna McDonald, the view, 30,000 foot view. Listen, I'll circle back with you on this after we, we'll take this offline, how about that? Okay, Jenna, yeah, we're over, yes, yes. I'll circle, yes, I'll follow up. I'll ping you about that in just a moment.
Jenna McDonnell (43:56.834)
30,000 foot view.
Jenna McDonnell (44:07.423)
Reverse engineer.
Jenna McDonnell (44:13.91)
Oof.
Erin Diehl (44:15.082)
Oh, all right. Well, I'm so grateful to have you on the show. Improve It, peeps. You can find Jenna on LinkedIn and connect with her there. She's all over the Improve It website. And if you ever go into the contact us page and you reach out, you will know Jenna McDonald very quickly. So thank you for being here. Thank you for this conversation. Improve It, peeps. You know the deal. Keep failing.
Cape improving because that world needs that very special it that only you can bring. I just looked exactly into Jenna's eyes as I said that. Did you feel that? I looked directly her in the eyeballs. All right, improvement babes, till next week. See you then.