Episode 221: Dissecting Perfectly Hidden Depression? Here Are the Secrets to Healing with Dr. Margaret Rutherford
Dr. Margaret Rutherford is celebrating her 30th year as a psychologist in a private clinical practice that she loves in Fayetteville, Arkansas. In 2014, Dr. Margaret published an article on The Huffington Post that went viral. That article evolved into Perfectly Hidden Depression, Dr. Margaret’s debut novel which focuses on how destructive perfectionism can act as an unconscious camouflage for silent despair, loneliness, and even suicidal thoughts.
Dr. Margaret joins Erin to discuss how we’ve learned to camouflage our emotional pain with accomplishments, what's underneath it all (the way we show up, our sense of humor, our personality, our energy) that needs attention, and the difference between constructive perfectionism and destructive perfectionism.
Dr. Margaret explains why perfectionism is highly regarded in corporate culture and tools we can use to heal.
If you’re looking for a science-backed understanding of perfectly hidden depression and perfectionism, this is the episode for you.
ICYMI – Your Post-Episode Homework: Share this episode with a friend.
Show Links:
Purchase the I See You Meditation Album
Pre-order Erin’s newest book, I See You! A Leader’s Guide to Energizing Your Team through Radical Empathy
Get our free 4-Step Consistency Planner here
Did today’s episode resonate with you? Please leave us a review for a chance to win a self-care package from us.
Send a question/voice message on SpeakPipe here.
Want to book Erin to speak at your organization or large-scale event: Learn more here.
Connect with Dr. Margaret Rutherfod:
Dr. Margaret’s website
Dr. Margaret’s podcast, The Selfwork Podcast
Dr. Margaret’s blog
Dr. Margaret’s LinkedIn
Connect with Erin Diehl:
@itserindiehl on Instagram, TikTok, and Twitter
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
“I love this podcast and I love Erin!!”
If that sounds like you, please consider rating and reviewing this podcast! This helps Erin support more people – just like you – move toward the leader you want to be. Click here, click listen on Apple Podcasts, scroll to the bottom, tap to rate with 5 stars, and select “Write a Review.” Then be sure to let Erin know what you loved most about the episode! Also, if you haven’t done so already, subscribe to the podcast. That way you won’t miss any juicy episodes! Thanks in advance, improve it! Peeps :)
Episode 221 Transcription
Erin Diehl (00:03.751)
Dr. Margaret, welcome to the Improve It podcast. I'm so happy to have you here. It's like a long, long friend.
Margaret Rutherford (00:10.92)
I'm delighted.
Margaret Rutherford (00:17.703)
you're frozen.
Erin Diehl (00:19.099)
I lost you. Oh, can you hear me?
Margaret Rutherford (00:23.626)
Yeah, you were frozen there for a sec. Maybe I was frozen too.
Erin Diehl (00:25.843)
I know. Yeah, you were first into art. We'll just do it again. We'll start from right here at 30 seconds. There we go. Okay. Dr. Margaret, welcome to the Improve It podcast.
Margaret Rutherford (00:29.547)
Okay.
Margaret Rutherford (00:37.91)
Thank you so very much. I'm excited you were on mine and it was such fun and I couldn't wait to come into your neighborhood.
Erin Diehl (00:45.731)
I will welcome the door is open. Okay, welcome Matt is out. We're so excited to have you. I know the improve it peeps is what we call our audience are gonna gain so much value from you. I'm thrilled to chat about all things because you have so much value to bring to this awesome group of people leaders. I wanna start, you're welcome and you deserve it because you have done so much great work in the world. It was fun because I was on your show.
Margaret Rutherford (01:05.219)
Thank you.
Erin Diehl (01:13.003)
And I knew about you and I looked into your show and about you and your book and everything going into your show. But it was awesome being on the other side doing my homework on you. I learned even more. So I feel like you're doing such great work for so many people. I wanna start today by setting a one word intention for our time together. Is there one word that comes to mind?
Margaret Rutherford (01:24.875)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (01:41.351)
that helps you sort of guide this conversation today.
Margaret Rutherford (01:48.502)
Um, yes. And I think that word is, well, it's a hyphenated word, but it's one that I keep at the forefront of my own thinking and my own when I'm talking to people as self-acceptance. And so, you know, that is such a strong, people don't understand it. They don't understand the concept of self-acceptance. They think that acceptance is the same thing as resignation and it is not. It's a real growth oriented word. So
Erin Diehl (02:00.435)
Hmm.
Erin Diehl (02:13.481)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (02:18.606)
self-acceptance is more about recognizing your strengths and your vulnerabilities and knowing both of them and identifying both of them and realizing that neither one of them is stronger than the other. So that's the word I go by. What about you?
Erin Diehl (02:35.023)
Oh, I love it. Well, self acceptance was an entire theme of this show, self love and self acceptance were entire themes. So I love that. And I'm going to say, I'm going to say, because this just goes in line with our theme of the month magnetic. That is, that is my intention for today. I want people for us together in this conversation to number one, feel as if
Margaret Rutherford (02:41.448)
Really? Uh huh.
Margaret Rutherford (02:52.124)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Diehl (03:04.767)
people gravitate towards them because they feel safe. People gravitate towards them because they honor who they, the person that they're being drawn to is being honored for who they are because of what they're going through, all of their lessons, all of the things that they're learning. And together, this attraction creates the safe space for everybody to bring their full selves.
Margaret Rutherford (03:08.437)
Mm-hmm.
Margaret Rutherford (03:31.774)
I love the idea of magnetism because someone who is truly self-accepting, instead of being someone and we're going to get into this later, I know, but who is very perfectionistic and who's very accomplishment oriented and that's how they begin to define themselves and see themselves as successful, the more accomplished they are, rather than the more self-accepting they are, which means they, yes, they can claim that they have strengths and they have
Erin Diehl (03:51.75)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (04:00.886)
done one really wonderful thing is accomplishment wise, but they also know where their vulnerabilities lie. And that's what makes someone approachable. That's what makes a leader approachable when they don't have to appear, you know, that they are, they don't have, they don't make mistakes or that, you know, that kind of self-acceptance, that kind of openness, that kind of peace that gives you.
Erin Diehl (04:08.372)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (04:29.607)
Yes.
Margaret Rutherford (04:29.934)
makes people so and you can create this safe space for the people that work for you.
Erin Diehl (04:35.295)
Oh my God, I love that so much. And I truly am a testament. I had a leader who created a safe space for me. I didn't love the work I was doing. I was working in recruiting. I think you and I've talked about this before. I was working in recruiting and I didn't love the job, but I loved the person I was being led by so much that I stayed in it for five years because she saw me for me. She saw my strengths. She honored my weaknesses.
And she celebrated myself as a human being versus the person doing the job. And that I think goes hand in hand with what you talk about in your book and our theme for the month here on the show is all about magnetic culture. And I thought having you right now is the perfect time. We're starting a new year. It's January, 2024. Happy new year.
Margaret Rutherford (05:11.146)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (05:28.438)
Yeah.
Happy New Year to you.
Erin Diehl (05:33.623)
Okay, so I want to start, you wrote this amazing book called Perfectly Hidden Depression. Can you give a bird's eye view to our Improvet peeps of what you mean when you say Perfectly Hidden Depression?
Margaret Rutherford (05:49.806)
Sure. Let me tell a little bit of a story. I promise I won't go on forever, but I wrote this post in 2014 thinking about the people that had come into my practice over the years and had denied depression. In fact, they were sort of horrified that anyone would think they were depressed. And I wrote this post called the perfectly hidden depressed person or you one and it went viral. And when it was on the Huffington Post, I got hundreds of emails asking me questions about it.
Erin Diehl (05:54.376)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (06:06.879)
Hmm.
Erin Diehl (06:12.369)
Mmm.
Margaret Rutherford (06:19.018)
It's like you're in my head, how do you know this is going on? So I investigated and that led five years later to the publishing of Perfectly Hidden Depression because I never found, I found certainly wonderful work about perfectionism and covert depression and Brene Brown, of course, has written a lot about shame and vulnerability and perfectionism. But even she didn't go so far to say, there's a real danger here, not just to
the fact that you might be caught up in this cycle that can be damaging, but you can be caught up in a cycle that actually, without you even realizing it, is bringing you closer and closer to thoughts of ending your life because you don't know any other way out. And so, you know, so I wrote the book because I wanted for people, and clinicians, by the way, our mental health profession to realize
Erin Diehl (07:00.359)
Mm.
Erin Diehl (07:03.517)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (07:15.042)
that these kinds of folks, people who have learned as a protective strategy, probably in their childhood, to camouflage their emotional pain with a lot of accomplishment, with looking like you don't have any problems in the world by not talking about. And so they have shoved all this emotional... Sometimes people don't like the word trauma. I'm not traumatized.
But whatever happened to you that caused emotional harm, that they have pushed that away, and they're the kind of people that will look to you and just say, well, I just look forward. I don't look into the past. Or if I started crying, I'd never stop, or something like that. Anyway, so the point of the book is to help people recognize that is depression. It's just not going to look like classic or traditional depression. And it's another...
Erin Diehl (07:56.798)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (08:12.558)
The problem with it is it's not going to be diagnosed as depression often. It's going to be diagnosed as anxiety or something like that. So that's a huge problem. And I wanted to point it out. And I don't know. I thought, well, if nobody's going to point it out, then here I am, a therapist in Fayetteville, Arkansas, and nobody knows who I am. So I'll start a podcast and then I'll write a book. And there you go. You know, it's like, okay. It is a very...
Erin Diehl (08:33.308)
and look at you now.
Margaret Rutherford (08:40.826)
I cannot tell you the amount of emails that I've gotten from people who've said, my wife is like that. My husband was like that, but he killed himself. Or my child is like that. How do I help them or whatever? So this is a, and perfectionism is, I mean, it is going at a sky high rate. It's every, the perfectionism reports, self reports are increasing every day.
Erin Diehl (09:05.083)
I believe it in a society that is so reactionary and now so visible with social media and the way we show up. I'm so grateful that social media did not exist until I was out of college. I'm so grateful. So grateful. I love that definition so much. I know so many people listening can relate. I can relate.
Margaret Rutherford (09:11.798)
Right.
Margaret Rutherford (09:19.098)
Oh my god, yes.
Margaret Rutherford (09:30.581)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Diehl (09:30.931)
I have now been very vocal about my healing journey, but I think I was a perfectly hidden depressed human who saw themselves through achievement. Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (09:39.042)
You've got that kind of energy that you're very extroverted or seemingly so. And you know, it's just you're a motivator and you're funny and all that can go on and you're hilarious in fact. But at the same time, you know, what is underneath there that needs attention? And so I, yeah, and I was honored to do a TEDx this year, this past year.
Erin Diehl (09:54.176)
Thank you.
Erin Diehl (09:59.516)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (10:07.902)
reaching, it's doing very well, almost 40,000 views at this point.
Erin Diehl (10:12.735)
That's amazing. And it's because so many people need this conversation. So many people. And I'm so glad to have you here, especially knowing our audience is filled with people who lead teams. Obviously, we know that this is a conversation from starting with adolescence into adulthood, but just high level, how does identifying this perfectly hidden depression in team members, how does that enhance?
Margaret Rutherford (10:18.259)
I agree.
Margaret Rutherford (10:25.934)
Uh huh.
Erin Diehl (10:42.919)
the overall awareness of it, how does that enhance company culture? How does that impact company culture?
Margaret Rutherford (10:49.262)
Great, great question. Unfortunately, perfectionism is highly regarded in the corporate culture. I mean, oh yeah, you know, she's the one who always gets her work in early or he's the one who spends, you know, is here until 11 o'clock at night making sure that things are finished. And so, we reward people and it's a very positive trait. The problem is that if
Erin Diehl (10:59.891)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (11:18.258)
Let me make sure I say this. I'm not throwing the baby out with the bath water as that old saying goes. There is a kind of perfectionism that's called constructive perfectionism that is very healthy. It's about enjoying the value, inherently wanting to do well, inherently wanting to, if you're gonna do it, do it, you know, it's about creativity, generosity, curiosity, a desire to give back, desire to do well, to provide well.
Erin Diehl (11:23.292)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (11:47.094)
That's called constructive perfectionism. Destructive perfectionism is a whole different animal. And destructive perfectionism is much more about my orientation is to tasks and I leave one task and I go to another and I go to another and that's where I get my sense of worth. Constructive perfectionists get their sense of work out of the process of doing things well. Destructive perfectionists get their worth
Erin Diehl (11:52.287)
Mmm.
Erin Diehl (12:04.605)
Hmm
Margaret Rutherford (12:16.514)
The task is achieved. I did it better than everybody else. And now I go on to the next one. And there's a wonderful man in Canada named Gordon Flett who says it's like being on a treadmill where you have no control over the speed or the incline because the next task comes and the next task. And so you're always going from achievement to achievement to achievement. And if you stop all those feelings that you've got compartmentalized way over.
Erin Diehl (12:30.751)
Mmm.
Erin Diehl (12:45.884)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (12:45.922)
in your psyche somewhere are waiting for you. So, you know, that is really the fact that you want to really see in yourself and in your employees or your colleagues. Is this person, are they a constructive perfectionist or is this how they're, you know, the fact that they really, you never see them sad, you never see them
Erin Diehl (12:48.817)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (13:14.782)
look like they've got something on their mind, that they're just always work-oriented and achi And that kind of awareness, you just made see somebody's life, actually.
Erin Diehl (13:25.967)
Yeah, I love that. And I know somebody, as you were talking, I was identifying, just there's so many people who you know, who suffer from this and suffer silently because they're not even aware of themselves.
Margaret Rutherford (13:34.158)
Sure.
Margaret Rutherford (13:41.162)
They're great point, great point, because this is just me, right? That's what they'll say to themselves, well, I don't know what you're talking about. This is just me. And what do you want me to do? Take $100,000 cut in salary and so I can go play in the park with my kids? I'm not gonna do that. I mean, they justify it and all that kind of stuff. So sometimes they are so locked into this way of being.
Erin Diehl (13:44.019)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (13:48.22)
Yeah!
Erin Diehl (14:00.955)
Yeah, right.
Margaret Rutherford (14:10.038)
But it was so interesting, Erin, because when I wrote the book, again, these people said there was something about the term perfectly hidden depression. I'm not just depressed, I am perfectly hiding it. And I take pride in that. I take relief in that. No one knows except, except it is so incredibly lonely. I interviewed 60 people who volunteered. I was still trying to figure all this out.
Erin Diehl (14:32.633)
Yes.
Margaret Rutherford (14:39.754)
And I asked for anybody who was reading my stuff on my blog and if did it resonate with them. And I had everybody from brain surgeons to advertising execs to motivational speakers to grad students reach out to me. And I asked them why, and I spent like two hours on every phone call with them, asking them what their childhood had been like. And I said, why are you participating
in this, when I'm a perfect stranger, you heard about this term perfectly hidden depression and you're opening up to me. You're locked away in your office. You're out in your backyard whispering because you don't want anybody to know. And they all said it's because I would never want anybody to live the life I've lived. I have been so incredibly lonely. No one knows me. No one knows me. And so you talk about that magnetic
Erin Diehl (15:30.216)
Mmm. Yeah. Oh my god.
Margaret Rutherford (15:37.846)
who really is very achievement oriented or is doing very well, but that part of being a part of the social part of it, being part of the personal part of it, they don't know how to do that.
Erin Diehl (15:52.067)
Yeah. Oh my gosh. So many thoughts on that. And I think it was funny because you said perfect stranger for this perfectly hidden dependent, you know, all of it's perfect. And it's so interesting to me when you think about why people don't address this. And I think a lot of it stems, like you said, when we talk about magnetic culture, people are very afraid of being ostracized of
Margaret Rutherford (15:59.466)
Yeah, that's right. That's right.
Erin Diehl (16:20.255)
pointing out their flaws of leaning into what may not make them quote unquote perfect. So what could a leader do just on their own team? Because if we're tasking an organization, I think that's a very big ask. But let's say you're a leader, you have a team of five people. Or what could you do as a leader to make it?
Margaret Rutherford (16:30.261)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Diehl (16:47.427)
an acceptable space for people to talk openly about their mental health.
Margaret Rutherford (16:53.814)
Well, I think you have to model that. A man comes to mind that I worked with years ago that had come in with his third wife and he really wanted to work on things. He was very distraught this marriage was ending and I could tell she had one foot out the door and she did. She got in another relationship practically before they were divorced. And he looked at me and he said,
Erin Diehl (16:57.016)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (17:23.398)
I've got to figure this out. None of the women that I was married to knew me at all. I never talked about me at all. And now I've dragged my children into this. And he said, you know, I have issues with my dad that I've never talked about. I have issues with the way I was reared. And he had been fighting this shame and these inner voices of, you know, he was so determined to be successful.
that he wasn't paying attention to anything else in his life, including his children. And actually, people were asking to get off his team because he was so demanding and harsh and he would get angry, had terrible anger problems. Not terrible enough to get him fired, but terrible enough for people to be uncomfortable in his presence. He went to his supervisor. We talked about it. And I said, this is a good idea.
Erin Diehl (17:54.547)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (18:18.366)
And he went to his supervisor and asked them to get him some training in how to lead more collaboratively and more or just differently. And he took that training. He continued to work with me. We did a lot of a lot, maybe six months every other week therapy so that he could work out a lot of his feelings about his childhood. And he talked about it at work because he had been in therapy, you know?
Erin Diehl (18:45.797)
Mmm. Good for good, yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (18:49.402)
I want, that's what I mean by model. And so, and there are probably some people shaking their heads and go, oh, I'll never do that. You know, there's some therapist telling me that I gotta get into therapy. You know, I'm gonna go study my belly button as my daddy used to say. You know, I have to study your belly button. It's all about making changes that are gonna make your life better. So anyway, and using therapy as a consultation. Well, he called me about, oh, I don't know, six, seven months after he had left.
Erin Diehl (19:05.212)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (19:18.326)
And he goes, Margaret, people were asking to be off my team and now they're asking to be on my team. Because he knew how to be interested in the people. He had learned what his own defenses were and how they were getting in his way of actually being his best self and encouraging other people, which does not mean to be perfect, to be your perfect self. It means to be...
Erin Diehl (19:23.891)
Hmm.
Erin Diehl (19:32.905)
Yes.
Margaret Rutherford (19:43.658)
you know, I know what my strengths are. Like after a committee meeting, for example, or when it's over, instead of saying, well, okay, I'll get back with you and I'll summarize everything we've done and tell you where we're going next. Instead, you sit back and you go, listen, I have my perspective on this meeting, but does anybody have any ideas that, you know, maybe the direction we should go next? Instead of leading like I know the right way,
Can you lead by inviting other people's ideas into the discussion where everybody feels empowered and that you're supporting them in that? So my husband says I wouldn't survive in the corporate world one day. So, you know, I'm not sure how that's going to be perceived but I've seen it work with other people.
Erin Diehl (20:29.531)
Yes you would, yes you would.
Erin Diehl (20:36.999)
Here's the deal, the corporate world needs you because the corporate world knows it needs to change and it's changing with conversations like this. And I think that conversation you had with this gentleman is such a testament to your work, to your teaching. It's also interesting because the whole time you were describing it, it's what we teach in improv, yes and, like you're literally.
Margaret Rutherford (20:42.221)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (20:59.788)
Really?
Erin Diehl (21:02.039)
telling people, allow other people's voices to be heard, allow them to contribute, don't have all the answers, collaborate effectively as a team. And it's so beautiful to hear that because the work that we do is so aligned. I also think that the work that we're doing and both saying the same thing, but differently is so necessary right now because people want to be led
Margaret Rutherford (21:10.766)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Diehl (21:31.911)
by somebody who's transparent and authentic and giving us this space to be a full human changes the game. And I think one of the things that I love that you said is it's like sort of taking off the mask. And I think 2020 really did that for a lot of people. People started to break down those walls because we started to look into their homes instead of seeing them in this big boardroom. We're on Zoom seeing their office and their pictures
Margaret Rutherford (21:35.094)
Beautiful.
Margaret Rutherford (21:51.849)
Mm-hmm.
Margaret Rutherford (21:57.034)
Mm-hmm. Yeah?
Erin Diehl (22:01.727)
And it really changed the game for a lot of people. And I wanna ask you this because I think a lot of leaders listening might be thinking to themselves, okay, I have a couple of people who I think, I'm recognizing there might be something perfectly hidden there. What are some of the signs or the signals that I should be keeping in mind?
Margaret Rutherford (22:26.654)
Yeah, the book has 10 traits of perfectly hidden depression that they're not empirically validated. I'm a clinician. I'm not a researcher. But certainly, I've also been a clinician for 30 years and I run these traits by other people. You want to look for somebody who probably
Margaret Rutherford (22:56.862)
You want to focus in on someone who again, just never seems to have a bad day. We all have bad days. We all have days that, you know, and they'll say, oh, you know, they just don't reveal anything. You know their mother died. And they come back the next day to work, you know, rather than taking the time to do the work. I mean, you know, that's gonna take a long time. But how are they,
How are they working through their own emotional life? Or do they not even seem to have one? Now, I know there are other issues, people with other kinds of personalities. I mean, I'm not knocking stoicism. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking resilience. Those are, resilience especially is a very positive thing. But resilience and courage also, true.
courage and resilience talks about that, yes, I'm scared or yes, I'm grieving. I'm just, you know, Nelson Mandela said, if you're going to honor me, don't argue me just for my honor, me just my accomplishments, honor me because of the many times I've either been pushed down or fallen down and I've gotten back up. So, you know, working through and admitting those times and revealing those times that, you know, this is really tough.
Erin Diehl (24:16.493)
right.
Margaret Rutherford (24:23.642)
and I'm having a hard time managing this. There are many people who will never tell you that. And again, some corporate environments like Geist's are that they don't really promote that, but I guess you and I are both promoting that it would be a good idea to, you know, you don't have to sit around in a circle and sing kumbaya, but you do, you know, have ways that your colleagues can
Erin Diehl (24:29.232)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (24:53.426)
begin to express what's really going on with them safely.
Erin Diehl (24:57.695)
Okay, I love this. It's so funny and I'm sure people listening can think of at least one person that they know who has some or most of these qualities that you're describing. I mean, I'm literally nodding my head with, you know, as you're talking, thinking of several people, what is a safe way to approach these people authentically to show, I care about you.
as not just this human being doing the work, but as the human being. What is a safe way to approach them as a leader?
Margaret Rutherford (25:34.818)
Wonderful. Another wonderful question.
Margaret Rutherford (25:39.882)
You know, I get this question a lot, actually. I get this question of, I think my wife, I think my friend, I think my whatever is going through this, and how do I approach without making them defensive? And I think first you say, I really value you as an employee. I see what you do, I see how hard you work. You make a real difference here. But I also see some things that give me some concern. Would you be willing for me
Erin Diehl (25:42.12)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (25:50.207)
Sure.
Margaret Rutherford (26:09.25)
to talk to you about those. Because that's what the person fears the most. They fear that if they let anybody in, especially their boss, that they will lose ground, that they'll lose their viability, they'll lose their status. I worked with a hotel manager one time that she said, if anybody realized how much I struggle, I'd be fired.
Erin Diehl (26:21.043)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (26:38.044)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (26:38.982)
And so, she didn't have severe, I mean, that was all, that was not rational. So I think you invite them to have a conversation with you and then if they say, you know what, I just, I don't know what you're talking about. And you say, well, you know, maybe I'm wrong, but if you ever wanna talk about it or,
you know, I could give you the name of somebody in the Outland community that I hear is a good therapist. And sometimes the EAPs are a little sticky wicked for people because people fear that if the employment assistance program, that there are therapists there, but you know, oh, does that get back to the boss that I'm using the EAP? So if you've got good insurance in your company, hopefully you do, then you can say,
Erin Diehl (27:28.659)
Right.
Margaret Rutherford (27:35.722)
I've got a couple of names of this. You're trying to plant seeds that you see that. And then if they still don't respond, you go back. You go back two or three months later and you say, you know, I read this book called Perfectly in Depression. Or I heard this woman speak. And so I just, I don't know. I mean, what do you think? And you just invite a conversation because they are very armored up, you know? And so you don't want to go, okay, I know there's something in there that you're not talking about.
Erin Diehl (27:42.288)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (27:49.416)
Yep.
Erin Diehl (28:00.989)
Yes.
Margaret Rutherford (28:05.354)
I mean, that's, you know, that's going to be like this. Yeah. So very gently.
Erin Diehl (28:05.823)
Totally.
Erin Diehl (28:09.567)
red flag. Let me ask you this on the flip side. So let's say someone is listening and they are identifying with all of these characteristics and traits as you mentioned. How can they let their guard down to have this conversation? Is there some sort of suggestion or a mantra or a practice that you could share that would allow them to do so?
to feel at ease having this conversation with a leader or a friend or a parent, is there something that you could tell them to make them feel like it's safe to let down that armor?
Margaret Rutherford (28:54.818)
So it is.
Margaret Rutherford (29:00.034)
You know, I will say that, you know, I have an advantage being a therapist because usually when someone walks through my door, they are at least somewhat ready to look at themselves. If you do this in the break room or over lunch or whatever it is, it can come as a surprise and a jolt.
Erin Diehl (29:13.936)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (29:25.762)
But I think the person that may be listening that says, yeah, I'm one of those people, I'm real good at focusing on other people. I mean, I remember birthdays, I'm the cheerleader in the office, but no one really knows me. That you find one person, just one. It could be a friend from high school that lives in another city. I don't really care who it is. Whoever you feel like could be safe, and you say to them, I have something that I've never told anyone, and...
I want to tell you about it, but I'm not quite ready. Would you be open to hear it? You don't have to blurb, you don't have to say what it is. You have to maybe talk about process. I have some things that I don't share with other people that I struggle with. Would it be okay if I talked to you and they, well, of course, of course, what is it? I'm not ready to talk about it yet. You take little baby steps, little baby steps.
Erin Diehl (30:16.895)
Mm.
Erin Diehl (30:20.903)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (30:26.634)
I remember a woman I worked with who said, well, yeah, we have a group of women. We're all career women, but once a year, we make time for one another and we go on a trip together. And I said, oh, so do y'all like talk about yourselves? And goes, well, she said, you know, I have a son on drugs that struggles and I've never said a word. And I said, why not? She goes, we just don't go there. We just have a good time. We drink wine.
Erin Diehl (30:52.295)
Mm.
Margaret Rutherford (30:54.914)
We have a good time, we have nice dinners. And I said, so who do you, do you go up there by yourself? She goes, no, I travel with this one person. I go, well, why don't you have this conversation with her? Well, what happened was, not only did the woman say, oh, me too, I have plenty of stuff I don't let myself talk about in here, and they started talking about it. They went to the group and said, you know, we love all of you and we've known each other for a long time.
but we're kind of not talking about what's really going on. And they all kind of went, oh, it's like, it's like finally, you know, what in the Wizard of Oz, when the curtain is removed, you see the couch, you know, going like this. Yeah, you know, there's things going on that's back there, back there, that are influencing you, that you're trying to hide. And yet, you know, and so they became this group.
Erin Diehl (31:35.995)
Yeah, yeah, he's back there. He's back, yeah.
Erin Diehl (31:46.311)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (31:50.838)
that instead of their texts being about, their text chain being about more frivolous things, I got a raise or Merry Christmas or Happy Hanukkah or whatever it was, then they're like, oh yeah, it changed the whole tenor of this group. And it took one person risking, I don't talk about what's really going on. And the other person went, well, I don't either. And I'm on a nanny depressant. You are?
You know, it's like opening up just a little bit. And then you can invite other people to do it. And it instead, you know, one of the things, Erin, I've been very open about, I have a panic disorder, I have performance anxiety, I have had anorexia, I do not anymore, but I still struggle with the thinking. And I've been married twice before. My third marriage has lasted 33 years, so I guess that's not too bad. I finally got it right. But I...
Erin Diehl (32:21.256)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (32:49.906)
I openly talk about that and I was so scared to because I thought, who's gonna listen to a psychologist whose life was screwed up as mine is, or has been? And yet I think, well, you know, I guess they can say, nah, we don't wanna listen to her. Or they can say, well, good for her. You know, she's willing to talk about what her struggles have been. It doesn't make me any less of a whatever.
Erin Diehl (33:11.859)
I love that.
Margaret Rutherford (33:14.734)
accomplishment I've made. It doesn't make that any less. It just, it's an addendum. It's an and. I am a PhD. There are three letters after my name. And I've been married three times. Okay. Ha ha ha.
Erin Diehl (33:29.579)
I want to applaud you for that right there. Because that is, yes, there's rounds of applause right here in my microphone because, yes, on-court because truly, yeah. And I, you know, I see that in your work and that's why so many people relate to you. And that's why I think people feel comfortable. Same here, I mean, honestly, for about probably 30.
Margaret Rutherford (33:31.562)
Thank you. Thank you. I'll pause myself. It took me a long time to get there, believe me.
Erin Diehl (33:55.283)
four years of my life, 35 years of my life, I was the perfectly hidden, unaware of my own anxiety human being. I would say it was a lot of anxiety that could be classified as depression at certain times. And when I finally had to go through some, I will say I didn't have what I would call traumas in my early years, but they were tiny traumas, tiny T's, all my big T traumas.
Margaret Rutherford (34:05.831)
Mm-hmm.
Margaret Rutherford (34:22.797)
Mm-hmm.
Erin Diehl (34:24.915)
happened from 36 till 40, I finally was like, there's no way I can't talk about this. Like this is like what is happening. And if I don't talk about it, A, I don't feel like I'm being genuine, but B, what happens if I don't talk about it and my talking about it could save somebody else? And I'm so grateful for what you've done because you've opened the door and you paved the path for many people to do that in your life, in your community. And I hope.
Margaret Rutherford (34:44.258)
Exactly.
Erin Diehl (34:53.235)
The people listening to this show know that that's what we do. We go all the way. And that's what I want to encourage people here to do is to do that as leaders and to do that with their teams and to kind of break open that curtain, like you said, and see what's behind it because there's so much more. What have you found now that you've been more open with your community about your own struggles? What have you seen from your community in doing that?
Margaret Rutherford (35:08.782)
Thanks.
Margaret Rutherford (35:24.114)
Mostly the comments I get are, you're just very real. I appreciate that. And certainly, it's not that I've set myself up as an expert and I also don't have any struggles myself. I mean, again, I'll say it's an and. I've been a therapist for 30 years. I know something about doing therapy. And yet I also have my own vulnerabilities. And so the response has been,
Oh, and again, that's my definition of self-acceptance, my working definition. Who knows in another 10 years, I may have a different one. But I just think that's so important. And again, I'll go back to what, you know, this magnetic culture you wanna talk about. People are pulled toward people who are comfortable with themselves. And again, that's you're comfortable in your strength. You know what those are.
You claim those and you know at best, we all have blind spots, but you know pretty well what you struggle with. Your friends kid you about it. You know, like I'm very impatient and my son will say, mom, would you just chill? I mean, you know. And it's not, it makes me unpleasant sometimes because I'm, you know, I'm into time. How much time is this taking, you know? It's ridiculous. And so,
Erin Diehl (36:35.337)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (36:44.582)
Ha ha
Margaret Rutherford (36:55.202)
It's something that if I accept it, then it kind of loses its power for me. If I don't get defensive, but oh yeah, I know I'm really impatient sometimes. So that modeling is something that is really scary to do, and I completely honor that. At the same time.
Erin Diehl (37:00.104)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (37:15.978)
Wow, true connections are, there's just nothing like them. Really deep, true connection. You're not gonna be lonely. And yeah, you're not gonna be lonely.
Erin Diehl (37:25.715)
That's it. Oh my God, I love that. Okay, well, this is the final question, but I can literally talk to you for forever because I have so many insights from you. You're just this fountain of knowledge and I know our keeps. You are mother wisdom, I'm feeling it. But this one is, this is a question I ask all of our guests. We say it and prove it. Your it is that thing that you bring to the world. It's your purpose.
Margaret Rutherford (37:41.395)
Oh yes, I'm Mother Wisdom.
Erin Diehl (37:55.719)
What is Dr. Margaret's It?
Margaret Rutherford (38:04.042)
Of course I have to come up with the right answer, right? Because it has to be perfect. What's my it?
Erin Diehl (38:06.863)
Yeah, it has to be perfect. It has to be perfect.
Margaret Rutherford (38:19.218)
This is for myself or what I want to try to make. It doesn't matter.
Erin Diehl (38:22.703)
Either way.
Margaret Rutherford (38:30.701)
I want to.
What I want to improve is my, I'm always working on this, but I think as I age, it's even more important because I'll be 70 this year, is that I want what I value inside to show in very real ways in what I do and what I say and who I am and in my choices.
And sometimes I still have a struggle with, am I really living out those values? Because I get scared or I get afraid, well, that's the same thing. Or.
Um.
you know, as you age, you realize I've got a lot more years behind me than I do in front of me. And so you, I think this becomes for me even more important because I don't know how many years I've got in front of me, but I don't want those years to be either that time. There's my time management thing of, or that time to be, not every moment can be a deep vulnerable moment, but I don't want it. I want it to make, to make sure.
Erin Diehl (39:39.112)
Yeah.
Margaret Rutherford (39:49.73)
to make sure that I am living a life that is truly reflective of what I care about. And what I care about is people.
Erin Diehl (39:57.611)
Oh.
Margaret Rutherford (40:03.89)
learning their value and me learning my value and that that's not based on accomplishment.
Erin Diehl (40:11.847)
Oh my God. It's like that you just jumped in my journal from two days ago. Yes. Okay. Dr. Margaret. Yes. That is so beautiful. And by the way, you look amazing. Whatever you're doing. I want the lotion. I want the cream. I want all of it because I had no clue that you were turning 70. And also that right there is such a testament to the work that you're leaving.
Margaret Rutherford (40:18.189)
Hehehehehehe
Margaret Rutherford (40:28.086)
Thank you.
Erin Diehl (40:38.895)
on this earth, on this planet, your legacy. So I see it in everything you do. Your self-acceptance is shining. There's your word right there. And you're drawing people to you left and right, so magnetically. And I'm so drawn to you. I'm so glad you're in my life now. You're in the improve it peeps life. And just please continue to do this work because it's so necessary. It's so important and you're changing so many people's lives. And I hope today,
Margaret Rutherford (40:48.082)
Well, thank you.
Margaret Rutherford (40:52.887)
Thank you.
Erin Diehl (41:08.487)
really resonated with our listeners and I hope that you took something from it, can put it into action. Dr. Margaret, tell everybody where they can find you before we head out today.
Margaret Rutherford (41:18.938)
I have the original website name of drma And you can find the self-work podcast there. You can also find it wherever you listen to podcasts. The book is available everywhere. It's available in seven or eight different languages. If you're German, it's available in Germany or Italy or Korea or Turkey.
Erin Diehl (41:24.108)
Yes, stop. Good one.
Erin Diehl (41:48.046)
So cool.
Margaret Rutherford (41:48.074)
It's in Dutch, it's in a whole bunch of different languages. So anyway, you can find me lots of places. And then email me at askdrmargaret at drma
Erin Diehl (41:58.619)
I love it. And we will link to all those things. Thank you so much for being here.
Margaret Rutherford (42:02.675)
Erin, thank you.
Erin Diehl (42:08.043)
You are amazing, hold on, don't go.