Episode 245: How Does Toxic Leadership Stifle Freedom in the Workplace? Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett Spills the Tea
Toxic leadership comes in all shapes and sizes, but there are common threads to look out for that can either help you exit and heal or empower your organization as a whole to make change.
Dr. Laura Hambley Lovett is a work & career psychologist, keynote speaker, author, and podcast host. She’s currently researching toxic bosses in the workplace and what this entails for psychological health.
Erin and Dr. Laura discuss:
Some of the telltale signs of toxic bosses in an organization
“Hot spots” in toxic workplaces and how to take them seriously
The healing phase after you leave a toxic boss
Dr. Laura shares her top methods for coping and processing when you have a toxic boss and aren’t able to exit the situation immediately.
If you’re experiencing a toxic boss, have in the past, or know someone who is/has--this is the episode for you.
Special sprinkles on top of this episode:
How to actually put your ego aside
Erin’s own experiences with a previous toxic boss
What are the traits of a toxic boss?
They come in many forms, but the most common traits of a bad boss are clear: grandiosity, micromanaging, demanding unrealistic expectations from employees, being too political, and not trusting their team. -Online Career Coaching Services
How do I protect myself from a toxic boss?
5 Effective Tactics to Handle a Toxic Boss
Do Not Take Their Treatment Personally.
Find Allies and Support.
Take Time Off to Recharge.
Document, Document, Document.
Be Your Own Advocate.
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Connect with Erin Diehl:
Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the improve it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
Episode 245 Transcription
Erin Diehl (00:02.068)
Okay, Dr. Laura, welcome to the Improve It podcast. I feel like it's a long time coming, welcome.
Dr. Laura (00:10.014)
Thank you for having me, Erin Deal. I've really been enjoying your podcast episodes from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for doing what you're doing.
Erin Diehl (00:18.324)
Really? I'm going to receive that. Okay, because I'm trying to do better with compliments. So thank you. I received that and I am glad that you're here. I know you have so much wisdom to share and so many insights, especially for our people leaders out there. So I want to first just touch on the theme of this month. This month's theme is freedom. It's July. We're talking about freedom. Let freedom ring.
But when I think of freedom, there's so many different things and variations of that word and thoughts that I could go down. What comes to mind for you when you hear the word freedom?
Dr. Laura (00:58.782)
When I hear the word freedom, I think of freedom from barriers, from fear, freedom from your inner fear about making a change or doing something and being able to leap into whatever it is you want to be doing in your life, in your career, in your workplace, having the ability to make changes.
Erin Diehl (01:23.604)
Mm, I love that. And I know that we all strive for that. Like that to me is, ugh, that is why I am an entrepreneur, because I love to make changes that make them on the fly. Let's set an intention for this show. I know where I want to take it, but what is one word that comes to mind for you as an intention for you to give our audience, for you to give yourself, whatever it might be?
Dr. Laura (01:53.822)
I think courage because the topic we're going to talk about does take a lot of courage to navigate.
Erin Diehl (02:04.116)
I love that. And I like having courage to have these hard conversations. I know, you know, a variety of reasons why people clicked on the show title today. But is there, when you think of this word freedom, just staying on this topic a minute, is there a specific example or an experience in your life where you have felt freedom at its finest?
Dr. Laura (02:26.686)
goodness. I felt freedom, well, when I left an organization to be my own boss again, be my own leader, and I felt tremendous freedom leaving a culture where I wasn't, it wasn't the greatest fit for me and for my values and that was a couple of years ago now but it really was.
a liberating feeling for me to be more aligned with what's important to me in work and how I run a workplace, how I run a team, and what I do with my time.
Erin Diehl (03:08.02)
Oh, I love it so much. And I want to jump right to the topic at hand, toxic leadership. It is a buzzword because it happens, right? So just to give some insight, what are some of the telltale signs of toxic leadership in an organization?
Dr. Laura (03:29.31)
Oh my goodness. Well, stepping back, I definitely, one of the hats I wear is I lead a team of career psychologists. I have a career psychology company where hundreds of clients are seen every month and every year and thousands over time. And one of the themes is dealing with toxic bosses. And I see that, like I've seen that on the rise post pandemic actually.
And I like to say toxic boss because they don't deserve to be called a leader. Toxic leader flows off the tongue pretty well, but toxic boss is where it's at. So there's different categories and that's what I'm doing with my research project on the behaviors and impacts of toxic bosses. We're really looking at what are some of the key behaviors and how does this play out because not every one of them.
Erin Diehl (04:01.684)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (04:07.252)
Yeah.
Dr. Laura (04:24.734)
is the same. And we have some of them that fall in the sociopathic category, more narcissistic category. We have gaslighting that goes on. But I would say a common theme among toxic bosses that I'm seeing is it often starts out pretty positive. There's a honeymoon phase and then things degrade. And there's usually a series of behaviors that serve to chip away at your self -confidence.
or your self -esteem and they start to make you feel like you're not good at your job, like you're not worthy and then it goes downhill from there. I could go on about this so maybe just ask me specifically what aspect.
Erin Diehl (05:09.524)
Yeah. Okay, so this is, you know, as you're talking, I'm gonna be honest. I had a toxic boss in my life and I write about this person in my book. They're named Chad, quote unquote, Chad. And every detail and characteristic that you just described, like checked a box for me. How long is there, and this is just a pure curiosity question.
How long does it take for someone to discover that they are working with a toxic boss? Have you found that in the data or is there any sort of average that you're seeing?
Dr. Laura (05:46.942)
Mm -mm.
That wasn't one of our research questions, but it definitely came up, and I'm just going to give my opinion here. I would say it usually takes about three months -ish, like that three -month period where the behaviors start coming through. But I've seen cases where they come through in the first couple of weeks, right? So I think it really depends on the style of person you're working with.
Erin Diehl (06:12.756)
Yeah.
Dr. Laura (06:18.654)
and how that surfaces, but when it does, it just, yeah, it's brutal. And you think it's going to get better, unfortunately, it doesn't get better. It doesn't get better. And rarely can the organization do anything tangible. And that's what I'm trying to change, because organizations need to do something about these situations. They're harming people's mental health, physical health, and performance and productivity, all three.
Erin Diehl (06:37.908)
Yes! Yes!
Holy!
Erin Diehl (06:46.228)
Eh? To the man, okay? So let me like even that right there, that example that you just got physical, mental, and emotional health. Like when I was working for quote unquote Chad, I was so stressed out. I was so depleted. I had the lowest self -esteem of my entire career, but I was also one of the key players at this company, right?
Let me ask this, and this is a blanket question and maybe you can get really specific with an answer, but how does toxic bosses or I want to say toxic leadership, but how do toxic bosses affect employee morale? And it not only affects the person who's being led by this boss, but how does it affect the company and organization as a whole?
Dr. Laura (07:32.286)
Oh, definitely it does, because what happens is, and then we've seen this as a theme in the research, what they do is they destroy the team dynamics or the team cohesion, and they have their favorites usually, but they like to pit people against each other, because they don't want the power of the group going against them, or rising up against them. So they like to say, OK, Aarons,
my favorite and then Laura not so much so they're gonna pit you against each other and say hey Erin do you know that Laura was not giving you something that she should have you know she she withheld information from you and I don't think that's right and I just want you to know and then all of a sudden you don't trust Laura right so we're seeing a lot of those behaviors and what it does is it erodes the overall feeling of a unified
Erin Diehl (08:19.316)
Yeah.
Dr. Laura (08:27.262)
a healthy culture, a team that's cohesive, and it destroys that. Did you see that with Chad?
Erin Diehl (08:35.572)
Ah!
Yeah, Chad. I wouldn't say, you know, it's interesting. I think I was a favorite and I was also pitted against, like I was the one that was being pitted against other people. I think with Chad, what I experienced was...
Almost as if Chad would do anything to get to the top and he didn't care who he had to climb over or what person he had to step on to do it. And I was a lot of those steps. Like if you think about a ladder, I was the step after step after step that he kept stepping on because I was there and I wanted to support the team and I cared about the team dynamics. But all Chad really cared about was getting ahead himself. And so it was like...
It was less about pitting against each other, but more almost like Chad pitting himself against himself because he wanted so desperately to reach the top that he was just stepping on anybody that he possibly could to get there. And it, like I think back to those days and I just lived in so, my nervous system was completely shot. I lived in so much fear of my job and what they could do.
Dr. Laura (09:39.102)
Mm -hmm.
Erin Diehl (09:57.748)
can do and control in my personal life at any moment. There wasn't a boundary. And it was it was a really hard time for me mentally, physically and emotionally.
Dr. Laura (10:07.39)
I'm so sorry and yeah, they really do deplete your energy and deplete your sense of self and they take away your empowerment and then the, yeah, then you don't feel like you have the energy to make a change. That's what we're seeing. People get to this point where they just can't see past it. They feel like they're trapped or stuck and maybe it's for financial reasons.
or maybe they just don't believe they can get anything else that's at the same level, whatever it is, or they just don't have the energy to even try.
Erin Diehl (10:37.844)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (10:44.692)
Yeah, is there any data that shows how long people stick with a toxic boss or stay?
Dr. Laura (10:51.774)
Well, we've, in our research, we've seen an average of 20 months. And we go by months because a lot of people don't stay years and years. Like, it's honestly in months. And the shortest person I interviewed was two months. And you're like, how? Like, what? But there is just a really toxic person. And she was a senior member in government, in the government, and just totally steamrolled and was very abusive and very...
Erin Diehl (10:57.332)
Yeah. Yeah.
Dr. Laura (11:20.19)
horrendous to this worker in her early 20s who was excited to get this government job and she was early in her career and willing to go the extra mile and it was just completely traumatized from it and got out at two months thank God but I'd say the the average of 20 months and I haven't seen Minnie stay past three years that would be a long time yeah okay
Erin Diehl (11:33.652)
Yeah.
Thank God.
Erin Diehl (11:44.564)
Yeah, Chad was a year and a half. And then I found my case study of selfless leadership, Jen D 'Angelo, and I stayed with her for five years until I came up with the idea to start my own business and prove it. So that's in line. I guess that's actually a little over 20 months. It's over 20 months, but I was feeling it at month five. Okay. I was like, I am done. And I just stayed and stayed.
Dr. Laura (12:01.118)
Yeah, exactly.
Erin Diehl (12:11.796)
So I know we've gone down the rabbit hole of what it feels like, what it looks like to stay in that job, but what, if they're in this role and they can't see a way out, what are some strategies to cope and reclaim their sense of freedom? Just on this topic of freedom, what are some strategies that you're saying or talking about?
Dr. Laura (12:22.238)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Laura (12:33.598)
Okay, so there's lots of them, but one of them is certainly to journal about what you're going through because it's easy to forget and sometimes the act of writing it down or typing it out just makes it much more real and can give you that impetus. So there's that, there's collecting the information. So if you're getting toxic emails, toxic texts, send them to your personal...
email or text, like collect them all in one place, because you never know if you may decide to file a formal complaint. And there's the HR department you could file to. That's a whole decision point. But there's also sometimes these situations get so bad that you need to file externally to human rights commissioners or the human rights tribunals wherever you are, you know, bullying and harassment claims.
So it can go any direction, but if you can save all the information, that's good. And then to cope, talking to people, talking to loved ones, but talking to a therapist or a counselor, talking to someone who's objectively outside of it. Because if you talk to your spouse and maybe your spouse is worried about finances, your spouse will maybe bias to, oh, you know, just you can do it, you can stay, you can just set boundaries, you can make it work, and the spouse...
you know, it doesn't get the point that it's depleting you psychologically and it's going to cause physical harm and you need to get the heck out. So talking to other objective helpers in your life.
Erin Diehl (14:01.044)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (14:10.004)
Love that. Love that. I love the journal. For some reason, I didn't have that practice when I was going through my toxic boss moment. And I think that could have been very beneficial. I was much younger. So interesting. So interesting. And always... Yeah.
Dr. Laura (14:27.582)
and then trusted colleagues that you can connect with that may be going through the same thing. So in some of the cases, and I don't know if you had this with Chad, but eventually you find out that that person's going through it, that person, oh, that person left, following up with that person, having a coffee, finding out they left because of that.
Erin Diehl (14:45.78)
Yeah, so important. And I have to tell you just an interesting fact. So I actually was leaving this job because of a different reason. I thought I was gonna go back to school, et cetera. And when I told senior leadership I was leaving, they were shocked. They were like, there's no way you're leaving. And I was like, no, I'm leaving. And I'd asked for a promotion because I was doing the work of the level above me. And I trained somebody at the level above me to do their job, by the way.
And so they said to me, oh my gosh, we'll make you the title you want to be. We'll give you this raise and we'll change. You'll change teams. You'll have a different leader. And I was like too little too late. I've asked for this a long time ago. You have seen what has been. You have seen what is going on. And now because I'm walking out the door, you want to make this change. And so for anyone listening like.
Dr. Laura (15:38.494)
Mm -hmm.
Erin Diehl (15:44.18)
Being vocal with what you want, what you deserve, and then not getting those needs met and seeing that senior leadership isn't going to take action is also, I think, just a telltale sign, another telltale sign that you need to get out. So, okay, we've talked about strategies that we could use if we're dealing with a toxic leader, but how can a leader themselves recognize and address their own behavior?
to see if it is toxic. How could they assess themselves to see if they're a toxic boss?
Dr. Laura (16:20.574)
Well, I think the word toxic is a little alarming for people because not many people want to be thought of as toxic. So I'm still thinking this through, but I really think that we need to look at your own blind spots, your own gaps as more problematic behaviors, right? Like it's problematic and problematic behaviors can be toxic.
Erin Diehl (16:44.532)
Yeah.
Dr. Laura (16:49.534)
over time. But the problematic behaviors, understanding what those are and what happens is when people are under stress and pressure, that's when those tend to come out more. When they're trying to prove themselves, when they're trying to climb the ladder because they're pressuring themselves and they're self -serving, I want to climb the ladder no matter what. So you see the worst in human behavior when they are self -centered, egotistical.
Erin Diehl (17:02.74)
Yeah.
Dr. Laura (17:18.174)
The ego is highly at play and then that just erodes the people underneath them.
Erin Diehl (17:27.124)
Oh, I love that. And I think the people listening, I know my improvement peeps are amazing human beings, but we're all about leading with love and letting go of that ego. And I think that anytime that you find yourself, because you're a human being, getting out of alignment with your truest highest self, your highest consciousness, are there any practices that you have that can help a leader listening bring themselves back to this place of...
selfless leadership of love? Is there anything that comes to mind for you of helping somebody just get back into alignment as a loving leader?
Dr. Laura (18:05.374)
Hmm. I think, unfortunately, I think in some cases it takes hitting a rock bottom of some sort, and I'm being dramatic here, but like losing a good person, like losing Erin in the company, right? To say, oh my goodness, like what went wrong here? And that's a chance for them to look at themselves and to say, you know,
We need to improve how seriously we take things and we need to be developing better leaders that can retain talent. But that doesn't always happen. I've seen this in a lot of cases, including when I left my company two years ago, how it wasn't really dug into. I didn't have an exit interview. I didn't have.
a formal chance to go through what had happened with HR or, and that happens to a lot of people. You don't even get the exit interview. So how are they gonna learn from it if you don't have all the exit interviews? Exit interviews are gold to a company. They should be kept in a vault and treated seriously.
Erin Diehl (19:18.132)
Guess who did my exit interview? Chad.
Dr. Laura (19:20.222)
who, mm, yeah, that's totally inappropriate.
Erin Diehl (19:26.036)
Yes, yes. So I, and I'm giving a lot of my own story here because I feel like this just latches on to what you're saying. And because so many people listening today have either had a toxic boss or perhaps they might be in a situation or perhaps they have a friend or a loved one who is struggling. I've had, I remember being in this phase of my life and it affecting everything.
Like every relationship, I would call my best friend. This was all I would talk about. I'd call my dad on the way to work sobbing on Monday morning because I was just like, how do I handle this today? And it just affects you in every area. So if you're somebody who is in a great place right now, my ask is that you send this to somebody who needs it because Dr. Laura has amazing tips and tricks. And I know you have some case studies of people who have essentially left.
Dr. Laura (20:13.598)
Mm -hmm.
Erin Diehl (20:22.58)
organizations or overcome toxic leadership and restore their own freedom. Is there any story that comes to mind?
Dr. Laura (20:30.142)
Oh, oh yes, yes. So the healing, and that's what I'm going to write about in my book as well, but there's this healing phase that goes on where you finally get out of the situation, you get out from under the toxic boss, and everybody that we've talked to in our research has said, I wish I had left sooner. I wish I had left sooner. I'm so glad I left, but I wish I hadn't held on. I thought things would change, et cetera, but it ends up.
harming the person and then the length of time they stay under a toxic boss, it'll take at least that much time to heal, if not more. So I've seen PTSD almost, so past trauma, from the experience you're feeling the impacts of trauma and it takes like lots of time to heal and if you go into the next job, you're distrusting of any new boss, right? You're walking on eggshells.
Physically, mentally, emotionally, and spiritually, you need to focus on all four avenues of healing yourself. Talking to others who have been through it, reading books, listening to podcasts, going to therapy. A lot of people found therapy very, very helpful.
Erin Diehl (21:44.692)
love that. And I think, you know, everybody has their own way of healing, but there's, I have a huge proponent of therapy, a huge proponent of energy workers and light workers and healers, and those people you definitely need in your life. But I found for me, the healing really comes from within and you have to sit with your emotions and feelings. And it's just like leaving a toxic relationship, like a, a, a, a, a, a
What is the word I'm looking for, Erin? A romantic relationship, right? Like you take that information to the next relationship and you have to sort of, what I call Marie Kondo, those thoughts. And Marie Kondo is this awesome woman on television who goes into people's homes and helps them declutter and take what is no longer serving them, tell it thank you and reorganize. And you have to reorganize your thoughts.
because you are in a relationship with this toxic boss and it will affect you as you continue to move forward. But you've seen time and time again, people can heal and they can do this and move forward.
Dr. Laura (22:51.742)
Oh, yeah, and especially when they can say, how did I grow from this experience and how did I learn from this experience? And that sometimes takes a while to get to that point, but when you can get to the point of this was a growth experience in my life, I'll never be the same from it, but it's helped me to grow and to evolve. And that's what I feel from my past experiences, but it was really hard during the time.
Erin Diehl (22:57.716)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (23:12.66)
I love it.
Dr. Laura (23:18.782)
Yeah, I remember like my ego was really challenged. I was feeling like I had to, you know, put my ego aside to deal with, especially the transition out of there. And I ended up putting my ego, the word ego on a piece of paper and putting it in my attic just to get it out of the way. My husband had to reach up into the attic, you know, because he's tall. So he reached up into the attic and put it there. It's still there. We had...
Erin Diehl (23:37.332)
That's awesome! That's awesome!
Dr. Laura (23:46.302)
I haven't taken it down. It's like Laura's ego. And I have an ego, we all have an ego, but like I was really feeling like really hurt, right? And really just the way that a situation was handled and my ultimate exit, I was feeling I had to put my ego aside. Like it just wasn't gonna work. I just had to evolve past it.
Erin Diehl (23:46.932)
That's awesome.
Erin Diehl (23:55.188)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (24:08.212)
Yeah. And it, I mean, and I all, I truly believe we're all put in life to learn lessons. And a lot of these relationships are tests and lessons that we have to learn and have to continue to push through in order to get to the next point in our life and the next chapter. So I'm so glad you've, you've seen that. I'm, you're a witness to it. I'm a witness to it. When you leave, you can truly lean into the highest version of yourself and find that in your own work, whether it's you're an entrepreneur or you joined another company and another team.
Dr. Laura (24:16.766)
Mm -hmm.
Dr. Laura (24:36.542)
Yeah. And talking to other people, so people who have also left that toxic workplace or people who are still there. So sometimes people who are still there will reach out and some people say, oh, I don't even want to have anything to do with any of that. But sometimes the people who are still there need your support. And by giving back to them and by saying how you navigated that and how you've healed will really help them. And it's good karma and it pays it forward sort of thing.
Erin Diehl (24:37.684)
So.
Erin Diehl (24:42.484)
Yes.
Erin Diehl (24:54.388)
Yeah.
Dr. Laura (25:05.374)
So I think not closing your heart and closing yourself to others because there's very likely other hurting human beings in that toxic workplace. And a good friend of mine is going through a horrendously toxic boss and he was a VP of HR at a company and he derailed her career so she's taking him to court and I actually went to the courthouse to support her and the crazy stories that came out from this but one of them is someone who worked
Erin Diehl (25:05.684)
Totally.
Dr. Laura (25:33.662)
for him 12 years ago, she ended up reaching out to just to connect and he said, oh my gosh, you are going through the same thing I went through. I thought I was going crazy. That was the worst time in my career. I was losing my self -confidence and now I'm seeing 12 years later the truth in all of this. And it was a real healing moment for my friend and for this gentleman who has since gone on to do great things. He's high up in politics.
Erin Diehl (25:50.676)
Mm -hmm.
Erin Diehl (25:54.996)
Wow.
Dr. Laura (26:02.814)
in our country. So that's just an example.
Erin Diehl (26:06.228)
That is wild. And just the power of sharing your story, right? Like, because your friend was sharing their story, this person who worked for that person, director of HR, 12 years ago was able to heal. So, you know, I know there's a lot of, I know that privacy is real and a lot of people process differently, but for me, I'm always about sharing that learning so other people, A, feel less alone and B,
Dr. Laura (26:29.566)
Mm -hmm.
Erin Diehl (26:31.924)
Like what a wonderful thing to give that opportunity to somebody else to heal alongside of them. So kudos to that person. That's awesome.
Dr. Laura (26:37.694)
Absolutely. And me being in that courtroom, it really affected me. I was just like, oh my goodness, this is so toxic. So I ended up drawing a picture of the guy, the toxic boss, and he had a suit on and he was very polished and sophisticated. And that's another thing. A lot of these toxic bosses are good at managing.
Erin Diehl (26:43.604)
Yeah.
Dr. Laura (26:59.934)
to the higher levels, they're very poised and confident and that's exactly it. So I drew him with his like Armani suit or whatever and then he had a snake's tail. And so then his legs were like a giant cobra that were coiled and it just helped me get through those moments. And then she loved it, she loved the image.
Erin Diehl (27:10.516)
That's hilarious.
Erin Diehl (27:20.34)
Oh, I love it. So you are doing all of this research and and writing a book. You're going to write a book about toxic bosses.
Dr. Laura (27:30.366)
Yeah, absolutely. One for individuals to navigate and successfully exit and heal, and then another for companies to eradicate these toxic bosses.
Erin Diehl (27:41.268)
Oh my god, I cannot wait. When can we expect one or both?
Dr. Laura (27:45.886)
2025.
Erin Diehl (27:47.956)
Yes, that's right. I know we talked about this on your show because I was on your show and it's happening 2025. It's happening. So before we get to a really fun thing, I want to just give some actionable steps to the improve it peeps. If you're in an organization or you have a toxic boss in your organization, is there one actionable step that the organization leadership can do?
Dr. Laura (27:50.91)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Erin Diehl (28:17.62)
to help promote this culture of empowerment and freedom and is the step getting rid of the toxic boss or what is the step?
Dr. Laura (28:30.558)
There's the, I mean, getting rid of it, or him or her, or they would be the right way, but that is easier said than done. I would say taking it seriously. So if you're seeing a hot spot, I call it, so there's a hot spot, there's people leaving, there's a high turnover, or there's people, there's been a couple of complaints to HR in that area. You need to take that so seriously. You need to pretend that,
This could sink your whole company, even though you'd say, oh no, that's minor, right? But you need to act as if it would sink your company. That's how seriously you need to treat it. And then you need to be digging into the information. And the only way you can do that is through an, I believe anyway, an independent assessment of what's going on. You can't have necessarily.
HR is embroiled in the system and oftentimes they have a lot at stake themselves and sometimes they're bullied by the toxic boss. I've seen that in a number of cases that the toxic boss bullies the HR when the HR stands up for the person who's being harassed. You see what I'm saying? Yeah, so you need to...
Erin Diehl (29:27.604)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (29:38.26)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Laura (29:41.982)
have an independent evaluation or like to get at the to the bottom of the situation and it's it's worth it to do but I've seen these I've done these myself and I've seen these be ignored so you got to be willing to act on the results which sometimes means performance managing that person moving them to a non -leadership role in the organization I've seen cases of that that can sometimes work.
Erin Diehl (29:58.196)
Totally. Totally.
Dr. Laura (30:09.47)
but they should not be given the honor and the privilege of leading human beings in your organization without a severe intervention and a watchful eye.
Erin Diehl (30:17.364)
Yes.
Yes, because a lot of times people who are really good at maybe client facing roles or good at sales are sometimes the toxic boss and leadership doesn't want to condone that person or like say anything about their performance because that could hurt overall company revenue. It could help sales. It could hurt all the things. But what's going to really hurt, right, is like.
Dr. Laura (30:40.478)
100%. Oh yeah.
Erin Diehl (30:44.852)
The overall company culture of your company is what sells your product or service. So that toxic boss needs some type of reprimanding or some type of specific attention, right? To allow that company to thrive.
Dr. Laura (31:02.91)
Yeah, they absolutely do because it's short -term pain for long -term gain. If you have to performance manage them or move them into a non -people leadership role or whatever, that's painful. It's going to be painful. There's no two ways about it, but it's going to be long -term gain for your culture. So stop promoting brilliant jerks. I love that. Radical Respect, that book that's coming out by Kim Scott who wrote Radical Candor.
Erin Diehl (31:23.22)
Totally.
Dr. Laura (31:32.382)
In her article, it was stop promoting brilliant jerks, and I love that love that oh My god, I love I want to get her on my show. I really a shout out to her work
Erin Diehl (31:32.436)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (31:36.788)
That's right. Kim was on the show twice. So, love Kim. Yes, she's amazing. Yes, and it's true, stop promoting Brilliant Jerks is absolutely correct because it's ultimately going to lead to the decline of your organization if you have a company filled with jerks. So, okay, let me ask you this. This is something fun I wanted to do with you, Dr. Laura, called A Minute to Win It.
Dr. Laura (31:59.23)
Yeah.
Erin Diehl (32:05.876)
Add and prove it, okay, lots of it's. And I have some one, I have questions for you that are fun, but this is a minute timed activity. And I'm gonna interview you and ask you these questions. And I want you to try to answer all of them in one minute or less. And this is just fun, get to know Dr. Laura type stuff. Are you ready? Okay, I'm gonna watch the clock. Here we go. Okay, the best leadership book you've ever read.
Dr. Laura (32:24.766)
Yes.
Dr. Laura (32:34.718)
No Ego by Cy Wakeman.
Erin Diehl (32:36.788)
Ooh, and Cy's a guest on this show too, we love Cy. Okay, best television show that showcases great leadership.
Dr. Laura (32:45.15)
Oh my gosh. Have I watched a lot of shows on great leadership? I mean shows are usually about the other side of it, like Succession and all of that. I didn't like Succession. I didn't like Succession, by the way. I found it was too negative, too much negative energy. Maybe it's too close to my work. Great leadership. Oh my gosh. I don't know. Oprah Winfrey Show.
Erin Diehl (32:55.348)
I don't, I don't, or just best show about leadership. Succession.
Ah, yep, yep, you need a little break.
Erin Diehl (33:14.484)
Yes.
Dr. Laura (33:14.654)
I think she had so many, I think she's a great leader and she has so many examples of great leadership. I grew up with that show and et cetera.
Erin Diehl (33:21.876)
Love it. Love it. Okay, 10 seconds. Here we go. Best podcast you've ever listened to besides this one and yours.
Dr. Laura (33:28.158)
Oh, I was gonna say yours. I'm gonna say I love Oprah's Super Soul conversations a lot. Yeah.
Erin Diehl (33:36.18)
Me too, me too. Oh, we're so connected, Dr. Laura. Okay, we did it. That was a minute. That was a minute. I had more, but I'm gonna give it to you. That was amazing.
Dr. Laura (33:44.894)
I could have answered more, but yeah, sorry.
Erin Diehl (33:46.868)
I got more, I got, here, I really am interested in this. What's your dream job of all time or are you doing it?
Dr. Laura (33:53.726)
That is a great question. I would actually love to run my own nonprofit sort of organization that helps build confidence and resilience in girls. I like helping young women and girls. And I'm just really drawn to that in my future.
Erin Diehl (34:16.788)
I'm here for that. So when you do that, you let me know. I love it so much. And then this is a question I ask every guest. What is your it? We say it improve it, that it is your thing. It's your purpose. It's your why here on earth. What is Dr. Laura's it?
Dr. Laura (34:19.966)
Hey.
Dr. Laura (34:34.43)
Creatively making a difference. Creatively making a difference.
Erin Diehl (34:39.988)
Mm, I love that. And if people wanted to find you, how can they find you? Where can they listen to your podcast? Where can they go to learn more and get on a list so they know when these books come out?
Dr. Laura (34:53.854)
Yeah, so it's drlora .live. So that's the website. And you'll find the podcast on there, Where Work Meets Life, and it's on all the podcast platforms. There's also a monthly newsletter that I have tips and tricks and resources. And you can sign up for that as well on the website.
Erin Diehl (35:14.676)
So good. And I'm so glad we have been connected and I cannot wait to watch your book launches and celebrate you as an author. I know you've written two fiction books, but now you're going to be a nonfiction author and have just all of this amazing work come to life. And thank you for just your research and time. And I have to say, I think we had a very courageous conversation today, bringing it full circle. I feel like.
This was very courageous for both of us. And I hope people listening felt courageous just even tuning in.
Dr. Laura (35:48.19)
I hope so too. Stay well everyone and you've got this!