Episode 58: LGBTQIA Communities at Work: Why Creating a Safe Space Matters with Betsy McCann
“It’s one of those moments where it was like, we did very little, but also like that’s the impact you have is that you make a space for someone else to exist.” - Betsy McCann
Failed it! Fam, happy pride month! On today’s episode, we have Pack at Embroker’s Vice President of People Operations with us, Betsy McCann! Listen in as she tells us how she helps her peers create a better and safer workplace for individuals at work, and the importance of celebrating and accepting the LGBTQ+ community as the workplace shifts and evolves.
In today’s episode, Betsy talks to us about:
Disrupting HR + transgender employees
Inclusivity and how to celebrate LGBTQ+ communities at work
Workplace evolution
A Disney reference that will blow your mind
Links from show discussions:
About the Guest: Dr. Betsy McCann (she/her) is an enthusiastic optimist birthed in the tender fires of the Midwest. Growing up as a queer kid on a farm in a small town, she learned a lot about loving nature, raising pigs, and the necessity of authentically loving yourself. Currently residing in Salt Lake City’s mountain paradise, Betsy enjoys hiking, bicycles, and ice cream. On her journey she has been a speech coach, taught pit composting in Guatemala, and has used her time in the pandemic to fall more in love. Currently, she spends her days with the Pack at Embroker as Vice President of People Operations where she fails every day and is thrilled to be creating magic while building the future of Insurtech.
About the Host: Erin Diehl is the founder and Chief “Yes, And” officer of improve it! and host of the failed it! Podcast. She’s a performer, facilitator and professional risk-taker who lives by the mantra, “get comfortable with the uncomfortable.” Through a series of unrelated dares, Erin has created improve it!, a unique professional development company that pushes others to laugh, learn and grow. Her work with clients such as United Airlines, PepsiCo, Groupon, Deloitte, Motorola, Walgreens, and The Obama Foundation earned her the 2014 Chicago RedEye Big Idea Award and has nominated her for the 2015-2019 Chicago Innovations Award.
This graduate from Clemson University is a former experiential marketing and recruiting professional as well as a veteran improviser from the top improvisational training programs in Chicago, including The Second City, i.O. Theater, and The Annoyance Theatre.
When she is not playing pretend or facilitating, she enjoys running and beach dates with her husband and son, and their eight-pound toy poodle, BIGG Diehl.
You can follow the failed it! podcast on Instagram @learntoimproveit and facebook, and you can follow Erin personally on Instagram @keepinitrealdiehl here. You can also check out improve it! and how we can help your organization at www.learntoimproveit.com. We can’t wait to connect with you online!
Episode 58 Transcription
Erin (00:00):
Hey friend, are you a leader who is career-focused, goal-driven and possess a life long learner mentality? Do you dream about achieving your goals and spend hours Googling how tos and gurus? Does a side effect of your awesome, might I add, personality include perfectionism, the dreaded imposter syndrome and the ever-present fear of failure? Well, you've landed in the right place. We just became virtual BFFs. I'm Erin Diehl, the founder of the improv training company improve it! And a recovering perfectionist turned failfluencer. Inspired by the improv rule, there are no mistakes, only gifts, this podcast is the creative outlet you need to not only motivate you, but the people that you lead. Through interviews with corporate leaders, entrepreneurs, and even comedians, you'll walk away becoming a more empathetic boss. I realizing that failure is a part of the journey and you must fail in order to improve. In the scene of life, we all have our own unique gifts that we bring to the world, and it is our mistakes that help to unwrap them. Welcome to failed it!
Erin (01:22):
Okay everyone, failed it! Family, friends. I am so stinking excited. I have a friend, pal, HR and people operations rock star on the line today. Welcome to failed it. My friend, Betsy McCann.
Betsy (01:45):
Thank you so much, girl, so happy to be here.
Erin (01:49):
I'm dying on the inside and on the outside. This is now my ghost. I am dead because truly you bring me so much joy and I can't wait for the failed it! Fam to feel it. So are you ready? Because I'm just going to brag about you for like a full two minutes. Are you ready?
Betsy (02:06):
I'll do my best to put on a face right now. That is incredibly humble.
Erin (02:11):
Okay. Okay. Humble face. Ready. Here we go.
Betsy (02:14):
Yeah.
Erin (02:14):
Dr. Betsy McCann is an enthusiastic optimist birthed in the tender fires of the Midwest. First of all, I'm reading her bio and this bio could not be better. Growing up as a queer kid on a farm in a small town, she learned a lot about loving nature, raising pigs and the necessity of authentically loving yourself. Currently residing in salt lake city's mountain paradise, Betsy enjoys, hiking, bicycles and ice cream on her journey. She has been a speech coach taught pit composting in Guatemala and has used her time in the pandemic to fall more in love. Yes, currently she spends her days with the Pack at Embroker as Vice President of People Operations where she fails every day and is thrilled to be creating magic while building the future of Insurtech. Welcome Betsy again yet again.
Betsy (03:12):
Erin, I'm so happy to be here.
Erin (03:14):
How did you feel? How did that feel?
Betsy (03:15):
It felt great. Yeah, that felt like me.
Erin (03:18):
Okay, good. I felt like when I read that, I felt like it was you and I loved it so much. So let me ask you this. What's one thing in that bio or on your LinkedIn profile, or even like your Instagram that we couldn't find about you? What's a fun fact?
Betsy (03:37):
Oh my gosh. Well, you know, that farm background is one that like, because I was a child in the nineties, like is undocumented very well. Quick facts about young Betsy in 1994 at the Ohio state fair. I was the top judge in the state of Ohio at a time now.
Erin (04:02):
What were you judging like the size of the eggs?
Betsy (04:05):
Oh, you know, there is a whole science and art effect greeting for like, once you get in the cart, like if I pick up a cart in the grocery store, I know how big the air cell is inside that egg. I know how those eggs have been graded for shell defects for size. I know how to hold an egg up basically to a light bulb and look at what's inside and make a decision if that egg is good. Yeah.
Erin (04:26):
Things that I need to know more of!
Betsy (04:28):
Skills you never use as an HR executive.
Erin (04:32):
Oh my God. Never would have known that. Had I not asked that question. So I love that. I now know that about you and I'm going to go grocery shopping and just FaceTime you really quickly to make sure.
Betsy (04:43):
I'll look it up, hook it up at the TJ's. I will, I'll be right there to help.
Erin (04:47):
Oh my God. I miss the TJs. Okay. Cause you know, I moved, so I only have one TJ here and it's like 30 minutes and I'm just, I'm not in the mood to drive 30 minutes for TJs. But if I had some, you know, the pub cheese thing, I would, I would be a better person. So speaking of, okay, you are now VP of people operations at and broker and you moved from Chicago to, I want to say your dream location of salt lake city during this pandemic. So tell us what made you decide to move?
Betsy (05:19):
Well, my company, like every company went remote during that time and, and as we talked about like longer term prospecting talent, what would be a best decision for us moving forward? And we talked about, you know, the ability to hire anywhere. And if we started hiring people remotely, you know, would we let our existing PAC members, or would we encourage or support if people were like, you know what? I live near an office right now, but I don't want to anymore. And we decided as an executive team that we were going to be okay with that. If people moved and I was like, great, I'm getting out of Chicago. Uh I mean, I've been in Chicago for eight years. I originally only went there for two. You know, sometimes you stick around and I wanted to live my partner and I wanted to live somewhere where we could be in nature where we could hike. I had only had one layover and one incredible set of enchiladas in salt lake city in my life. So we came here for three days, rented an apartment went to three of the five national parks in Utah. Drove back to Chicago, packed up our stuff and moved here three weeks later, a little pandemic wildin' right. Driving all over, like camping everywhere. Yeah. It was quite a, quite a journey, but it was just really exciting. I had no idea salt lake salt lake or Utah was where I like really wanted to be. But also if you want people to ask you a lot of invasive personal questions move to Utah.
Betsy (06:57):
Um but I think like it's been great. We are probably, this is probably just our gap year and we'll probably end up somewhere else later this year. But I think like for our time here, this has just been absolute like paradise and like the true meaning of what I think like pioneers and settlers found 200 years ago.
Erin (07:18):
Hey now. Okay. So move to salt lake if you want great enchiladas and just nosy neighbors. Okay, great.
Betsy (07:26):
No actually our neighbors are super generous. They've brought us homemade chocolate homemade marinara sauce, homemade homegrown reasons. A couple of neighbors brought us like just a cake one day. We have done some shenanigans here. We decorate our house for holidays. And then for Easter we put little rubber ducks all over the neighborhood.
Erin (07:49):
Stop it!
Betsy (07:49):
Walk at like 10 o'clock and put little baby ducks and like Easter baskets and Easter hats, you know, like little rubber ducks, all all up and down the street. We hid them in people's, you know landscaping. It's just some shenanigans here in salt lake city.
Erin (08:03):
I love it. Can you, if you want to come to Charleston real quick and do just like a full out like a fun stay with some shenanigans, we're here for it. Okay. We're here for.
Betsy (08:14):
I'm here for shenanigans.
Erin (08:15):
I'm here for shenanigans. That is amazing. And I'm so happy that you're, you're finding joy and you, I think a lot of people can relate that during the pandemic, they reassess a lot of things and that's what you did. So I want, I want to backtrack though.
Betsy (08:29):
Okay.
Erin (08:29):
I'm I want to go, boom. That was like, you know, the saved by the bell. You get me. Okay. So squiggles, squiggles, squiggles. Okay. So we in 2016, I think the fall, the fall, because I had just spoken probably six months prior at a previous disrupt HR. And I came to the next one and I was like, I know what you are all going through. This was the, I mean, I speak for a living, but the hardest thing I've had to do, which I want you to tell us for anyone who doesn't know what disrupt HR is, can you tell them what that is? Because I saw you speak at it. So tell, tell them what it is.
Betsy (09:13):
Yes. It is an event where you give a five minutes speech on something that is disruptive to human resources. You have 15 slides that change automatically every 20 seconds, whether you want them to or not. Which for me was absolutely the most like terror inducing the entire experience. Like, I better keep these real simple. If I go off track five words, I'm going to be three slides behind before I know it. So it's like a super-intense in that regard, but also the most supportive audience of people that are just like cheering you on and encouraging you. And then you get to hear these fantastic ideas about creative approaches to the work that you do every day or things you haven't thought about or innovations other people have tried. So it's just, I always thought it was such a tremendous learning experience and opportunity and just like the most fun, authentic community I found as an HR professional.
Erin (10:13):
Oh my gosh. Me too. And you and I, after I saw your talk, which was all about her topic, was how to talk to your trans employees, which I want you to know after a quick Google search, I found it prior to this interview and I rewatched it. Okay. And it still stands. It's amazing. This is 2016 and I will put a link to it in the show notes if you're okay. Because it was so good.
Betsy (10:42):
Yeah! Thanks.
Erin (10:42):
I want to ask you - this talk was so moving to me at the time that is, I literally reached out to you after I saw you speak and that's how we became friends and we got coffee. I'll never forget, Beck. You were, you were at a different position and I remember coming to your office building and I felt like it went by so quick and it had been like an hour and a half. And I was like, oh my God, like, she's the best. So what inspired you to give this, talk about how to talk to your trans employees?
Betsy (11:10):
Well, I think first and foremost, I ended up in that spot because when I came to your disrupt HR, you know, there's the feedback form that they send and it was, they, it was like, what topics would you want to see? And that was one that I put in there. And Nicole, who was running district disrupt at the time, reached out and we had coffee and she was like, you know, just talking to me, we had, we, I mean, like, it was just such an incredible conversation with her. I just remember being like, wow, this is so cool. And then at the end of it, she was like, yeah, that's a great idea. Do you want to do it? And I think my initial response in my heart was like, ah, no, I don't want to get it wrong. And then of course, like my mouth said, yes. And you know, part of the reason I was also really excited to get to work on that is that you know, in the nineties, when I was in undergrad I had a number of people in my social circle and in my friend group who were beginning to identify as transgender and, you know, go through like having a new name, having a new identity that was authentic and not new to them, but new to the rest of us.
Betsy (12:21):
And I truly imagined, you know, what was this like 15 years later that 20 years later that everyone had had trans friends in college, you know, or everyone knew someone who had transitioned. And when I was doing, you know, some of my graduate work, I knew transgender grad students, and it was the same experience of like, oh, this is just a really normal thing that is in every circle. Why are so many people having such a strange reaction to this? This is this is just a thing like this happens, this is, this is like, some people are born in a body that doesn't match who they feel that they are at times so that they, they need to step into that authentic self and become who they really are and have been their whole lives. And we should like, just cheer that on.
Betsy (13:10):
We have so many things about empowerment and letting ourself and how to be authentic that like, if anyone does that we should be celebrating. So yeah, I realized one of those things where I, I think my experience and, and just my, and again, like peripheral exposure to this trans community or, or having conversations with trans people, like was the more I realized that was a unique experience. The more I was like, oh, there's a lot of people who probably are terrified to even ask the question here, because they don't know what it's like, or they don't, they're afraid to get it wrong, or they just don't know where to start. So if I can give people even the most rudimentary roadmap of here's some basic touchpoints of best practices that you can incorporate just to be more inclusive. And just to build that concept of like interpersonal equity, you start to create safer environments that allow others to be themselves. And I'm like, I don't know what everybody lives like that the world feels pretty good. That is what inspired it is because I realized how many people that were HR professionals didn't know where to start this conversation. So if I could, if I can help my peers make better workplaces for people at their companies, then absolutely. That was what I wanted to do.
Erin (14:23):
And it did it, it did that and it rocked the room. I think you might've gotten a standing ovation. I could be wrong but I will link to it in the show notes. And you know what I don't like about disrupt HRs at the end, you don't hear the applause, but she, she rocked the room and it is such a supportive audience, but you really brought it. And I'm just, that drew me to you. And we've been friends ever since. And I'm so grateful to have you to have your perspective on this, because I want to take this. We're airing this show in June. Okay. Which is pride month and I know a lot of companies celebrate the LGBTQ community you're around, but not all too. So I want to ask this question. You, why is it important to create these safe spaces to celebrate the LGBTQ employees that they have all the time? Not just in June?
Betsy (15:23):
Well, Erin, I don't know if you're aware of this, but I am a homosexual.
Erin (15:29):
I do know this. I do know this about you. I do know this. Yeah.
Betsy (15:35):
It's so important to create that because I think workplaces are one of those for hundreds of years, our jobs or occupations are like a cultural stronghold, right? It's a, it's a, it's a location of our identity. I think as we've seen in the past, you know, even like 70 years, right. Even if we just go back to the time of the TV show, mad men we see a different type of evolution in the workplace of there is this structure in place that we will not in any way, shape or form deviate from. Um and we will make this so everyone has to come here and fit into these existing boxes that have been predetermined historically by, you know, cisgender heterosexual, white males, you know, and like nothing against them. They did what they knew how to do. However, as more than just that demographic takes place in the work in the workplace, like you come to the office and maybe you don't fit into that box, right. Maybe you don't fit into that ideal workspace, you know, and I think we've seen this with literally name, any group in the workplace, right? The, the struggle of working parents, the struggle of those over 40, veterans, the LGBTQ community, the black community, the Latin X community, the Asian and Pacific Islander community. Do you know? I mean, there, there has been this whole shifting evolution, like intersectionally of, of what it is to bring ourselves to work.
Betsy (17:03):
And it is a tremendous lift when, you know, if you think about it this way of like, imagine you're one of those characters that work at Disney world. So every day you are Erin Diehl and you get up and you do your dance and you put it on your face and you do your, put your hair in your scrunchie and you get your cute shoes on. And then you roll to the happiest place on earth as Disneyworld, and you feel so good about yourself. And then when you get there, you have to put on this weird costume that has big overalls on it and a dog head. And then you have to present to everyone that you work with is that you're goofy. So it's this act of when you go to work, you have to be someone that you're not. And, you know, that is by and large, like a huge part of the experience of being an LGBTQ community as a professional. You know, I think every queer professional gages at some point, like when, when do I say, this is me? When do I, you know, what, what happens? Right? Because I think there are even workplace protections, right? Like gay people can still lose their houses. You know, like there are all these things that, that are risky as soon as you say, this is who I am. And so it's a big decision to be able to do that as a person, right. And the psychological safety, especially as a people operations leader that I want to imbue into my company, into the company with my friends, into the spaces where I am present is that there is acceptance for people who may find acceptance in other areas of the world or in other places, you know?
Betsy (18:44):
Yeah. That's where workplace is, plays such a role, because I also think, you know, in the nineties we had like the, the very safe, the very sanitized coming out of like Ellen, we had really grace where it was like, oh, you can be a gay person, but you have to be a gay person that acts a certain way and fits in a certain mold and doesn't do anything threatening. Whereas like the history of the LGBTQ community, when you think about Stonewall, I mean, it was like drag Queens, throwing bricks at cops, you know, it was like it was trans individuals throwing bricks at cops. It was the trans individuals that were the catalyst for so much of the movement, right. That it able the conversations to start taking place at a much bigger level. Right. And there's no, there's no global history that exists without trans people, without queer women, without queer men, that, that history doesn't exist.
Betsy (19:48):
It's just where, where are the obvious touch points that these people made an impact or were present. Right. And we can have this in our workplaces too, in a way that makes our businesses stronger, makes us more open to profit, makes us better community partners. You know, that really just is a win-win for everyone. So I think that's, that's, that's why we need to do it as as an industry, you know, like as an industry, as workers, right. As companies creating that matters.
Erin (20:22):
Yes, it does. And would that Disney world reference blew my mind because you've got this scrunchie on and I was stepping into goofy. Okay.
Betsy (20:33):
You feel good? Yeah. And then you get to the place where you can't feel good cause you can't be, and that's hard.
Erin (20:40):
That's so hard. And I think in my personal opinion, I think a lot of people's perception of, of work and personal life changed in 2020. I think we saw a lot of people say, okay, well, I see into your home now I see you more of a person. And, and my life's work truly with improve it and using improv as an art form and a teaching tool is to break down those barriers. So people, and I'll never forget this Betsy, I'll remember this forever, you said to me, cause we did a workshop and you had some team members come and, you know, we do the chicken dance as of now in our workshops. And it guides people very gently outside of those comfort zones, but that's the point. And you said, and it failed it! Fam. You can't see my hands, but you said, Erin has to get you to go here. And my hands are really wide. Okay. Just to make you move this much and my hands or look like I'm holding a tiny little pea.
Betsy (21:37):
Yeah.
Erin (21:38):
That's exactly the mentality, is we have to get outside of our comfort zones. Because if, if we can't think about the way that everyone in our organizations feel and we can't put our, like that Disney world metaphor for me is, is forever going to be engrained in my mind too. And if you, as a leader are listening today and can think about people in your organization who may not feel like they're bringing their true self to work. We got work to do y'all okay. So let's, let's start with you, Betsy, what are you doing right now at, at Embroker to create that safe space for let's just LGBTQ, let's just stick with this community. What are you doing to create that safe space?
Betsy (22:24):
So, first and foremost, I think I can create the safest space for others by just creating the space itself invitation-only and there is no secret at Embroker, you know, that I am a woman and I have a woman who is my partner. This has been something that in my very first interview I talked about I talked about it every step of my interview process and have consistently been open about my life and, you know, being queer and my queer friends or my community, you know, I, I have no I've no hesitation in sharing that obviously, as like I developed like appropriate professional relationships with the people in the pack right, these are things that like, aren't a secret. But I think that's important because last year during pride month we had an all hands meeting and I did like just a brief presentation about what a pride celebration is, what the history is. I talked about Marsha P Johnson. I talked about Sylvia Rivera. I talked about, you know, how everything started, you know, just with the ask to be allowed to exist. And I remember one of our employees reached out to me afterward and was just completely like, thank you.
Betsy (23:46):
I have never heard anyone at my workplace talk about being queer before, and this was just incredible. And it makes me really proud to work here. It's one of those moments where it was like, we did very little, but also like that's the impact you have is that you make a space for someone else to exist. Right. And I think like, even, especially as a professional woman, right, we all know the adage of like, when you get there, you make sure you prop that door open for the next person and put a ladder. So it's easy for them to get it right. Make it as easy as possible for someone to follow in your path more safely than you did. Right. And I think as, as a professional and as a executive, that's something that like is critically important to me. Do you know, like my executive team, we are currently in month, five of a seven month DNI coaching exercise where we're building strategic initiatives for the company and making our commitments for what our DNI programming looks like for the next three years, building a really strong roadmap with actionable items in every aspect of the business.
Betsy (24:52):
And when we kicked off a couple of months ago, you know, we were talking about what our thoughts were just about the process. And I talked to my peers, my executive team about how doing this work was so critically important to me because it, it was not only just about building a better workplace, right. And building a place where people are excited to come and feel good about themselves and do really good work in service of our mission. But also that doing this type of work was, was critical to my survival, right. Especially, you know, in a legislative landscape where multiple states are, you know, hand over fist, taking rights away from trans individuals and making it harder for trans people to receive medical care be with their families, you know, live with their parents, with the spate of that legislation across the United States.
Betsy (25:42):
Like that's a very slippery slope, you know, from trans individuals to the LGBT community, to people of color. Do you know what I mean? Like to women, like, it's just, you know, once these precedents are established, right, I think everyone then becomes tremendously vulnerable. And so how we're going to guard against that is also creating spaces at every touch point. Right? So, so getting an executive team or getting a body of leadership to take a better approach to building an inclusive organization means that people are going to be able to keep jobs so that they can pay their rent so that they can keep their health benefits so they can get the medical care they need. Right. So they have that peace of mind when life is additionally challenging because, you know, I think the other aspect of it is like people in the LGBTQ community are so reliant upon friends frequently more than family for that community stability for those family attachments.
Betsy (26:42):
And so a lot of people have been cut off financially. So yeah, it's not just, I want to feel good and wear a rainbow shirt, which I don't even own a rainbow shirt, but it would be, I want to survive. Right? Like I need to be able to keep a roof over my head and keep food in my fridge and keep my bills paid and be able to attend to my family's needs and my partner's needs. And you know, as those arise. And so some of that means like building stronger structures where the threats that will come externally have a harder time getting in, you know, where there's right. The world out there is terrible, but inside here, this is, this is great. And this is what we're doing.
Erin (27:29):
Betsy! Everybody, yeah yeah, that's in this podcast, yeah yeah, your executive team, yeah yeah. Okay. Because this is the real freaking deal and Backstreet boys just came on. I don't know where that came from, but I.
Betsy (27:48):
Your heart, Erin, it came from your heart.
Erin (27:50):
It came from my heart!
Erin (27:53):
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Erin (29:29):
So many members of the failed it! Family. Hey everyone, are corporate leaders, entrepreneurs, lead teams of people, emerging leaders, all people who lead people and love people listen to this show. And I know because I talked to them, what a lot of people are struggling with is taking this to their senior leadership. And what you just said is so important. And so many people need to hear it because I think a lot of times organizations who are more conservative have a really tough time with communicating this. So if you could give one action item to a member of the failed it! Family right now who is struggling with creating this type of safe space for having these conversations at work, what's one action item they could take today.
Betsy (30:22):
Shoot your shot. That's I think the first step, I think that's always my advice shoot your shot. And I think even in a conservative environment, even in like, even when you look at some of the more like legacy businesses that have been around for 200 years, the needle is moving there because I think where, where this gets hard and where this is just tough road to navigate is I grew up in a really small town that hated gay people. And you know, you, you internalize a lot of that stuff, I think. So there's a personal part of it that, like, I know other people that grew up in my small town that are in fact, not be folds who weren't gay people, but they are certainly not accepted. Right. And that is just because they've never had an opportunity to learn in a way that makes them and know, inspires them to learn, to be a little different, you know?
Betsy (31:16):
And so the thing is, is that even in a conservative business, there are hundreds of data points about being inclusive and creating these types of work environments and safer spaces at work for people in populations and communicate communities that are externally oppressed or historically underrepresented there's case study after case study, after case study, after case study, that this is good for business. Right. And I think the harder part is, is that it is incredibly motivating to know that this is a collection of people's personal stories and experiences and like how this is linked to the survival of so many people. But I think the other story that is in some way personally, less important to tell, but professionally more important to tell is that this is also tied to the survival in the future of the business, especially when you are looking at, you know, as we have like five generations in the workforce currently, like when you get down to gen Z, like we have like an entirely different context and concept of understanding and acceptance and what even like, I think every generation that has evolved a queer identity has added more life.
Betsy (32:28):
You know, it used to just be like LGB and then it was LGBT and then it was LGBTQ and then it was, LGBTQIA, do you know, like more inclusive and, and, and just as we're able to have better conversations about what our identities are, we're able to build more resolute and more solid, you know, even conceptualizations of our own identity, you know? And I think even like, we see this with pronouns, we see this with like gender identity where, you know, it was like one, two, three, seven, you know, like now there's yeah. Like now the concept is so different because we've been able to have better discussions about it. So when I say, shoot your shot, I mean, find a way to connect this to leadership that resonates with them by just starting with some very simple equations of like, just go talk to someone and say, here's an article from the Harvard business review about how good it is to be an inclusive workplace.
Betsy (33:26):
What else can we do as a company to get here? Because as we are looking five, two to five to 10 years in the future, these are going to be non-negotiables for the workforce, right? Like we've seen this, I think even in the wave after COVID, depending on, you know, like all of the like job secret advice was like, make sure you ask the company what their COVID response was and how they handled it. Yeah. Also as job seekers, when I get candidates asking questions about DNI, I know that these candidates are looking for a long-term home and they're thinking about the future of the company and what we're doing to build for the future. Right. So companies want to survive essentially. Right? So shoot your shot, start having the conversations, and I think like, that's where you just have to find one person that is like, in fact, I also agree that this is something we should work on.
Betsy (34:17):
Right. And then there's two of you. And then two of you talk to people until there's four of you, you know? And I think that is in every business, there are people that know this. And I think especially as more LGBTQ people come out and there is more understanding and just conversations about what it means to be like a queer person in the workplace or not in the workplace. Like now everyone knows somebody that is a queer person who goes to their church, who, you know, is on, that's use a stereotype is on the softball team, you know, like that they they're, it used to be no one knew. Right. And now it's exceptional to not know a person, perhaps like I remember my best friend and I were building houses for habitat for humanity in 1998 on the outer banks in North Carolina. And this woman thought my best friend and I were a couple and we were like, no, we're gay. I remember she cried because we were their first gay people she'd ever met. And it was just like incredible for her Cheryl. I don't know where you are, but if you're listening, you're welcome.
Erin (35:29):
Oh, Cheryl, I love Cheryl, Cheryl, shout out. Oh my God. Yes. See, and this is so important. So shoot, your shot failed it! Fam shoot your shot. And I love this tangible advice. And I think as, as you are even alluding to the talent retention and recruiting efforts, I mean, it, that point that you made about, you know, what's your DNI strategy, what's your response to COVID. Those things are going to matter so much. And especially this new workforce coming in, I have a lot of gen z people on my internal team and I've hired a lot of gen z people in internship roles. And I mean, the, the mission, the critical thinking beyond why your company exists and why you exist is far more important to them.
Erin (36:22):
And so I think, you know, it's such an inclusive generation that gen z thank you, gen z. I don't, Jackson, my son is an alpha gen alpha. So hopefully his gen will just be even more inclusive. Yeah. I mean, like bring it on. Let's do it live in. Let's do it day. I don't normally swear on this podcast. Sorry. If your children are in the car every dang day. So I, we didn't really talk about your failed it! Story on here, because I think it's so important to highlight the work that you have done. So this wouldn't be the failed it! Podcast. If I turned it around, if I didn't turn it to failure. So, I think, you know, we have, we've talked about how society in general has failed at creating the safe space internally for the LGBTQ community. Am I, should I add the I a, am I not saying that right?
Betsy (37:19):
It's LGBTQ QIA. The QQIA is the, and this is, look Erin I'm in my forties. So I may not also have the most up to date things. So give me the, give me what you put it in the comments. Call me up. Help me fix that. Okay. Queer questioning intersex and asexual were the QQIA.
Erin (37:46):
Okay. Okay. Now, now I'm going to rerecord all the questions I asked you with the correct. I'm just kidding. I'm not, that's part of the failure. That's part of failing it. We learn as we go. So I appreciate that knowledge and we will include that. But let me ask you this. See, I just failed it right there. But Betsy, what would you do even if you knew that you might fail, what would you do personally?
Betsy (38:14):
I mean, I feel like every day is a journey and I would say I would just keep what I am doing. I do. I feel like there are so many times I have an imperative to speak up. I come from like incredible. My mother and my grandmother, her mother were just incredible women. I mean, like I still have my mom, I'm tremendously lucky there, but she and my grandmother are both like very outspoken and be like, don't let them talk to you like that. But also just the behind the scenes emotion of doing hard work, but also how you are. Especially as a woman, I think like, there's going to be times that no matter what you do is going to feel like failure. Right. And I think like I don't know if I do any differently, cause I feel like I'm constantly ready to fail.
Erin (39:01):
Can I tell you, I ask this question to almost every guest and the answer is almost the same because the people on this show are living and doing their life's work, which is what you're doing so interesting.
Betsy (39:15):
And I talk about my partner and I talk about it. Cause we, we, I think like are more comfortable with risk and change. And I think because of our, like just our life circumstances, we have some flexibility and autonomy there that some people may not have either. But like, you know, we just picked up and moved across the country to salt lake city during a pandemic because we were like, well, if we don't like, it we'll find another place to live. And you know, like, it's the, like, there's nothing that we can recover from it, but that you only learn that by just constant decades of just disappointment when you get to the point where you're like, okay, well, is it going to be as bad as like 2000 to 2002 was? I don't think so, this will be okay.
Erin (40:02):
You can do it. You could do it. Yeah. I think back at 2020 in that compound crap that kept falling and I was just like, okay, a hiccup and a day in 20, 20 years, you've got this. So I, I love that mentality. Betsy, we were coming to something that you may know is coming. Cause I think you listened to this show, but if you, if you may not, it's called the failing lightning round. Oh, there's a little bit of improv. Okay. You ready? You ready? Okay. So you're just going to respond as fast as you can with a one word answer. If you say more than one word, I'm going to give you the creepy fail yeah voice. Okay. And just, you're not failing it. You know, you can't fail, but if you say more than one word, I'm going to tell you fail yeah. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Are you ready? Betsy? We can for the failure lightning round. So let's do it. Let's do it. Here we go. One word to describe your early career.
Betsy (40:53):
Wah.
Erin (40:53):
Well, that's a word I will take it to work. Okay.
Betsy (40:57):
Transcriber. Good luck with that.
Erin (41:01):
Yeah. And we do transcribe this show, so we'll see what the coming up with. Okay. And one word to describe where you're currently at in your career.
Betsy (41:11):
Mountaintop.
Erin (41:13):
Is that a hipehn?
Betsy (41:15):
That's one word.
Erin (41:15):
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. I like that. I like that. Okay.
Betsy (41:18):
I'll take the failed it if it has.
Erin (41:19):
No, you know, I need a spellcheck. I need a spellcheck rector. No, it's one word. I'm going to give you. One word to describe your future self.
Betsy (41:28):
Sparkles.
Erin (41:30):
One word to describe your favorite boss.
Betsy (41:32):
Mentor.
Erin (41:34):
Okay. One word to describe your least favorite boss.
Betsy (41:37):
Petty.
Erin (41:38):
One word to describe your own management style.
Betsy (41:43):
Giggles.
Erin (41:44):
One word to describe your work from home fashion style.
Betsy (41:48):
Oh, solid.
Erin (41:51):
Okay. We'll take it. Describe this interview.
Betsy (41:56):
Delightful.
Erin (41:59):
Okay. First of all, you can't say the word giggles and not giggle. So that was amazing. But yeah, you nailed it. You didn't feel that.
Betsy (42:08):
That was really hard because for my favorite boss, I almost just shouted out her name. I would have been like, nah, Natalie.
Erin (42:16):
Hey Natalie. Hey Natalie. Thanks for listening, Natalie. Welcome to the family. She was a wonderful person to manage I'm sure. Okay. How can people find you if they want to learn more or if they have questions, are you opening? Are you opening? Are you opening up? Are you open to people sending you questions, feel LinkedIn or want to find out more about Betsy McCann? How can they do that?
Betsy (42:43):
Yeah, LinkedIn is the best way. I think like everyone else in the pandemic I probably need like a 72 hour response time on LinkedIn, but I think like LinkedIn would be the best way. I think that is like just a tremendous way for personal connections. I think that is how during my Chicago years I built a significant amount of people that started out as professional acquaintances, but then became personal friends, shout out Jackie. And I think like that would probably be the best place to find me. My socials are generally pretty private, one because I work in human resources. And I think that's just the best practice to have some like separate space where you know, during the day I am absolutely 100% available to everyone that I work with. And then I need some time to, I'm just available to me. So I think my life is there. We do have a pretty good shared Instagram called marmaladeliving.
Erin (43:44):
Oh, that's fun.
Betsy (43:45):
That was exclusive. Okay. Cause we're in the marmalade district in salt lake city named because the early people who settled alert here, settler for example, the house we rent we were in a duplex that was built in like 1864 or something. And it's such a great little tiny house. And the neighborhood we're in is like there's fruit trees everywhere. Like there's, if you go up the street apricot street there's just apricots everywhere. I took a walk this morning and it's small, like honeysuckle.
Erin (44:21):
That is the best smell ever. It's like my childhood. And to be honest, I have, I have some in my backyard, like in my backyard. There's honeysuckle. Can you believe that I know.
Betsy (44:32):
I love it. Okay. So yeah, LinkedIn is the best way to get in touch with, okay.
Erin (44:36):
We'll link to that. And I just want to say Betsy, you are a gem of a human you radiate positivity, and you're generally one of my favorite people. So thank you so much for being here today.
Betsy (44:49):
Awesome. Awesome. Thank you for allowing me to come fail miserably and with you. I have loved this podcast since the beginning and I think, I don't know if you know this Erin, but my favorite question to ask candidates in a job interview is to talk to me about failure simply because you can tell immediately and someone is still on verbal, the like how comfortable they are with it. Right. And I think I was interviewing this woman a couple of years ago and she had this like mortifying story of failure about like creating an entire deck for a client with the wrong data set. And she sent it, she was getting ready to send it at like five minutes before the deadline and realized she had done everything wrong and had to call her boss and say, look, I'ma fix this. You just need to cover for me. And like, even if she told me this story, I was mortified. And like, she got that job. I was like, look, look, you knew how to fix it. It was mortifying. You did not waste time making excuses or getting defensive. You just had a solution. And you understood that. Like, it wasn't a judgment on you as a person because you failed. It was just like, everybody's going to fail. So it's just, today's my turn.
Erin (46:03):
Of course, of course.
Betsy (46:05):
Your whole talk about this Erin.
Erin (46:06):
And I think it's just so important. Well, I am grateful that we had you on the show and I'm, I know the failed it! Fam is going to take away so many juicy chicken nuggets of wisdom today. And I just want to say it to the field at fam failure. Failure, fail. Yeah.
Erin (46:22):
Hey friends, thanks for tuning into failed it. I am so happy you were along for the ride. If you enjoyed this show, please head on over to iTunes, leave us a five star review and subscribe to the show. So you never miss an episode. New episodes drop every Wednesday. Now, if you're really feeling today's show, please take a screenshot and tag me on Instagram at keeping it real deal and share it to your stories so we can bring more people to the failed it family. I'll see you next week, but I want to leave you with this thought, what will you fail at today and how will that help your future successful self? Think about it. I'm so proud of you and you are totally failing it. See you next time. [inaudible].